Why do rapists rape? For power or sex? Let’s ask a rapist!

When I was younger, I was convinced rape was about power and control. That’s what everyone says. Now I’m not sure anymore. How about asking the rapists themselves for a change?
I read an article “An Interplay of Individual Motivations and Sociocultural Factors Predisposing Men to Acts of Rape in Kenya”[1]. It’s supposed to explore the motivations for rape and what predisposes men to it. The people they studied were convicted rapists in jail. 72 guys were interviewed face-to-face (questionnaire). Some of them were just guys who had sex with underage girls, which for me, ruins the usefulness of statistics a bit. I want to know why men RAPE, not why they have consensual sex with teenagers!

The abstract tells us that things that predispose a man to rape are individual motivational factors, sociocultural factors, or a combination of both:

“The individual motivational factors identified included drug consumption, marital problems as an excuse for rape, inability to negotiate for consensual sex due to being shy or afraid of women, rape as a form of sexual access, psychological factors like pornographic influence and rape hallucinations, impersonal sex and power, and use of rape as a “tool” for punishment. On the other hand, the sociocultural factors identified included the view of rape as a sexual act rather than an act of violence, social attitude that the woman “invited” the rape, early childhood environment, cultural practices, peer influence, and a lack of parental advice on sexual activities.”

Results (should be taken with a grain of salt due to small sample size and other things mentioned):

1) 93% said they had sex before committing rape, and that their first sex wasn’t coerced. (At least they are not blaming rape on rape?..)

2) 63% sexually violated an acquaintance, 17% molested relatives, 12% molested their friends, while 6% molested strangers” (Hmm, so we are still most likely to be raped by someone we know. But friends and relatives are not at the top of the list.)

3) 65% used drugs (mostly alcohol). 51.1% said they were intoxicated while committing the offence (with either cannabis or alcohol). 15% attributed the rape to alcohol use.

4) About half of the men watched hardcore porn. 28,9% of porn-users associated their hardcore porn use with the crimes, the rest disagreed it had anything to do with it. Only 12,5% admitted to having rape fantasies prior to the offence.

5)32% indicated rape was used as a tool to get sex from someone they lusted after. Although I detect the sexual motive in other categories as well, like the categories of drug consumption, marital problems as an excuse for rape, inability to negotiate for consensual sex due to being shy or afraid of women.

6)2,8% used rape as punishment.

7) Most of the offenders were from a relatively poor background

8)32% of them grew up in relatively abusive homes.

9)Most of them didn’t receive any sexual advice from their parents.

10)A lot of them blame the victim in some way, like “she was dressed sexy and I got an urge”, “she invited me in” and “she visited me in my house”

11)1% raped “to show physical dominance over the woman”, but I’m not sure how the study came to that conclusion by reading the responses (read quote 17)

What do the rapists have to say for themselves?
The study divides the excuses rapists use into those listed in the abstract (look up ;) ). But my interest is in finding out if power or sex was their main motivation. Or maybe even something else. I’ll highlight the parts of the quote that point to either power or sex as ultimate motivation. Here are some quotes. The actual quotes in the study are longer, but a lot of it is narration of the incident. I didn’t include quotes from men who were arrested for consensual sex with women under 18 (a few quotes), because it’s not what the post is about. I also excluded men who deny having raped (only one quote).
1)A married man raped his 10-year old niece after getting drunk and coming home:

“Later, I regretted so much for having done such an act. I think I committed this crime because I was drunk and because of the sexual urge that I had since I had already separated from my wife because of her unfaithfulness.”

Sex

2) ” In my village, there lived a very beautiful learned lady. I liked her over a long time, but later her mother stepped in and separated us just like heaven and earth. I was very angered by that, and a quick thought struck my mind. I got my peers, masked ourselves, robbed the house, and raped everybody in the house including the woman’s husband and the daughters.”

Revenge

3)” She was attractive, sexy, beautiful, and seductive. On that day, she was in a miniskirt and the clothing was tight on the body. Her lipsticks were red ‘hot,’ and she was proud. I was stronger and more robust than her, so I overpowered her. I was drunk and did not know I was wronging her.”

Sex

4)” I was drunk, and since I like women very much especially when drunk, I forced her to have sex with me.”

Sex

5) “My wife was having a relationship with a policeman. This caused a lot of trouble in our marriage, and I wanted to separate with her. I had sex with her daughter when she (the wife) was absent.”

Unclear

6)” The woman was wearing a transparent cloth, and immediately after she greeted me, my body got erected. I tried to seduce her, but she refused to abide by my views. My wife had left for her parents’ house the previous week, and since I was used to performing sex with her always I had a lot of sexual urge.

Sex

7)Man had sex with an 8-year old because he couldn’t seduce women:

“I could not raise a family and sustain a wife due to lack of money. I also had a problem of seducing women . . . We were very social with her (the girl), and I beckoned her to come into my place. It was at my place that I had sex with her.”

Not obvious, but if you asked me, I would say sex. And desperation.

8)A guy tried to rape a 4 year old but ejaculated before he could penetrate. He also admitted having sex with sleeping women before getting arrested for the 4 year old:

“To tell you the truth, the girl was very young; she was only 4 years old. I just had a strong lust to have sex with her.”

“I could not approach women and negotiate for consensual sex. . . I generally used to fear women. So I used to look for drunken women whom I could easily rape.”

Sex, duh. The last quote implies he’d rather have consensual sex over a rape.

9)” she used to change her cloths in my presence, and this aroused me a lot. I tried several times to talk to her into sex. She refused all the time. One day when I was escorting her, I raped her in the bush.”

Sex

10)” the girl’s parents were absent at the time. She was alone in the house. I went to the house and had sex with her.”

Unclear

11)” There were only four people left in the bus. It was in the early hours of the morning while she was sleeping that I raped her.”

Unclear

12)Man had sex with the maid and doesn’t understand if she consented or not, saying she participated in the sex act actively:

“Her choice was a pornography movie. The actors were either nude or scantily dressed. . . As I watched, I couldn’t control my emotions. I pulled her to the sofa . . . I caressed her and kissed her. She begged me not to continue. I thought she meant the opposite.”

Sex

13)Man breaks into a house and rapes a woman at gunpoint:

“I raped a stranger. She (the victim) was a well-built lady with striking beauty.”

Seems to be sex, although he doesn’t specify reasons.

14)Robber rapes during a robbery:

“I raped the second woman in the process of committing a robbery. I found her in the bedroom naked. Immediately, I got an erection, and I forgot everything I had come for. I forced her back on the bed.”

Sex

15)Man rapes a girlfriend’s friend, after she, according to him, removed her shoes in a sexy manner, sang to a CD in his presence, and kept pulling her dress up her legs as she sat and talked to him. The result:

“It was from the way that she was sitting that send my blood ‘boiling’ to an uncontrollable degree. She could often open her legs as we were cracking jokes . . . She could often pull up her mini-dress right up to her buttocks. Sleeping on the three people seat made her buttocks protrude like mount Zion.”

Was he mad? Or just aroused? I think the latter.

16)Man has lets a 4 year old girl perform oral sex on him for food. She doesn’t tell anyone, but it gets found out:

“I was about 17 years old when I started watching pornography. When I was watching pornographic movies, I used to have a lot of thoughts and desire to have sex. I have also witnessed girls being raped in movies. This would give me thoughts of forcing a girl into sex. I saw it very exciting.”

Sex with a touch of power.

17) “I did it because of my desire to have sex with her”

+

“She let me in the house and let me kiss and caress her, but she was not for sex. This was a challenge to my manhood, and I forced her to have sex with me.”

Sex and power
18)Men raped an employer for firing them without pay:

“She was our employer and had angered us because of dismissing us from employment without giving us our dues . . . We wanted to teach her a lesson.”

Revenge.

19)” She was wearing my clothes, and I was very angry with that. I took matters into my own hands and wanted to teach her a lesson.”

Hmm, power, perhaps?

20)” I wanted her to become my wife. I sent my friends to go and entice her (the woman) to come to my place. They brought her to my house.”

Unclear

Conclusions:
I wish I had a better study, with more people and about rape only. But from what I have read, it seems sex is a very widespread motivation for rape, according to rapists themselves. Power seems to be the motivation much less often. It often shows up as desire to rape because it’s exciting, to prove masculinity or out of anger. The latter is also tied with the third reasons for rape – revenge or punishment for something (also not a common reason). Power as the sole explanation seems to be rare.

1. Muchoki, S.M. and S. Wandibba, An Interplay of Individual Motivations and Sociocultural Factors Predisposing Men to Acts of Rape in Kenya. International Journal of Sexual Health, 2009. 21(3): p. 192-210.

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96 Responses to Why do rapists rape? For power or sex? Let’s ask a rapist!

  1. Clarence says:

    Congrats on being brave enough to “step into the dragon’s den” so to speak.
    It’s obvious rape isn’t always merely about “power and control”, but the fact that the only academic papers I can access on it are on the internet, and the fact that only a very few books have been written that explore “the rapists point of view”, it’s hard to prove it, though I did quote a book a few times against some feminists insisting on their Dogma. Not that it did any good. Maybe this study will help in the future.

    • emmatheemo says:

      what book was it? :)
      And from what I have heard, there are many studies that point towards sex as the biggest most usual motivation, but haven’t looked into them yet. Will do so in the future :)

  2. Faefel says:

    Dude, these guys are stupid.*

    Reading their testimony is so bizarre, maybe its just that they are Kenyan.

    *which, we already knew http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF01542085?LI=true

    • emmatheemo says:

      Kenya’s official languages are Swahili and English, so I expect their English to be different from American English. But even without that, their testimonials are bizarre to read, yes. Some are funny, some are disturbing.

      Thanks for that link, it was interesting :)

      • funinsnow says:

        Read a book by Randy Thornhill & Craig T. Palmer surrounding rape. Professor Thornhill is an evolutionary biologist while C.T. Palmer is an anthropologist. The fact is that rape is a crime motivated by sex. Saying that rape has nothing to do with sex is like saying robbery has nothing to do with money. Any1 who says that rapists don’t do it for sexual motives is dishonest, delusional or both-esp. if they’re a pscychologist. Here are some facts.

        1. Rapes are found in the animal world. They’re found amongst insects such as crickets, waterstriders, scorpion flies, etc. They’re found amongst birds such as mallard ducks & red jungle fowl. They’re also found amongst primates such as Orangutans. Males rape females for reproductive reasons in the animal world. A male who has problem getting females (such as males who lose mate fights) rape females so as to reproduce.

        2. Rapists mainly target young women, while rapists can attack women of all ages, most rapists go after women who are girls to 35 years old. 75% of women who are raped are under 30 years old, 10 to 12% of women raped are 30 to 35 years old, 7 to 9% 36 to 39 year old, with 5 to 8% of women rape victims being 40 or older with most in this group in their 40s, the last pretty years. Menopausal women, those 50 & older are 1 to 2% of rape victims. After 40, the woman’s chances of getting raped starts going down significantly. If a man robs a 45 year old woman, he’ll take her money. But if the same man robs a 25 year old woman, then he is more likely to commit rape in addition to robbery. This is true in wars. Soldiers steal, loot & rape young women. Men rape young women because the woman has something which the man wants & that is sex-which he takes by force & or by threatening force, violence.

        3. Most rapists don’t do added violence. This is esp. true of acquaintance rapes-date & marital. If a man rapes a woman, he’ll use the force or threat of this to get sex. It’s like a bank robber. Most bank robbers will only use the needed force or threat to get the $ & then leave. Another reason most rapists don’t use added violence is because of biology related to reproductive success. In the animal world, if a male kills a female in addition to sex, then his reproductive success has failed. Yes, some rapists do kill their victims just as some robbers kill their victims, but these are in the minority & the most likely reason is to kill any witnesses.

        4. Poor men are more likely to commit rape. Yes, rich men sometimes commit rape if they lack sex restraint. However the reason poor men are more likely to commit rape (with most of their victims poor women) is because poor men are more likely to have problems getting women. Women are drawn to men based on the man’s phoenotype (good genes) & resources that a man has. Poor men are more likely to have problems getting women who are interested in them & they may not even be willing to pay a prostitute. So they resort to rape for their sexual motives. In the animal world, males have to impress females such as win mate fights, provide nuptial gifts such as food to impress the females. If the females aren’t impressed, then some males rape so as to reproduce.

        Anyhow, if any of you have read the 2000 book by Thornhill & Palmer, the fact is that rape is a crime motivated by sex. Rapists motives are sexual & to say that rape is about power but not sex is rubbish. 84% of rapists say that sex is a main motive. Power which is force or threat of force is a means to get sex. Rapists mainly go after fertile women because this is who they want to have sex with & are attracted to. Anyhow, if you’ve read Thornhill & Palmer’s book or want to share views, then please do.

      • nate says:

        Very well said. And you don’t have to ask a rapist to know this, any honest healthy male know this at and even before puberty and will tell you. Rape is based on sexual impulse, it is genetic. Some have better control than others. There have been rapist who have requested to remain in prison because they said they could not control their impulse to rape.

      • Subliminal Portal says:

        In response to funinsnow’s comment, it may seem that less rich men commit rape than poor men for the reasons stated in funinsnow’s post. However, how can we really know for sure? Rich men accused of rape have the money to hire a high-gun lawyer to get themselves acquitted of such serious crimes and to pay off the media and the press to keep any shameful publicity about them from ever seeing the light of day. Moreover, rich men also tend to believe that they’re above the law and don’t have to follow the same rules as others who have less money than them. Therefore, I would think that such an adverse characteristic alone would make them more likely to commit heinous crimes against women and girls than not, especially if these men’s parents spoiled them rotten and indoctrinated them into believing that they do not have to take “no” for an answer as they are rich. When I lived out in California, I used to watch this evening show called “The David Viscott Show” where people throughout Los Angeles and the Southland phoned in for advice from Dr. David Viscott; and he was always getting phone calls from people complaining about some affluent director in the entertainment industry putting the make on them or about their rich boss trying to force himself on them if they worked as a maid in a large mansion. So many years ago there was even a story on television about this rich college boy who raped a female classmate, and his parents helped him flee the U.S. jurisdiction and his out in Sweden from the authorities until his visa expired. Poor men who rape don’t have the money to buy their way out of trouble or pay off newspapers and news agencies in exchange for their silence. Therefore, the number of poor male rapists is going to seem higher as opposed to rich male rapists. Although funinsnow’s comment may make every bit of sense, I still think that there is more happening out there in the real world than what readily meets the eye. Society needs to be more aware of it. Even the experts can easily be thrown off by the unavailability of the information they need in order to make their studies completely accurate.

      • Subliminal Portal says:

        Allow me to correct a typographical error I made in my previous post.

        I stated therein, “So many years ago there was even a story on television about this rich college boy who raped a female classmate, and his parents helped him flee the U.S. jurisdiction and his out in Sweden from the authorities until his visa expired.”

        I meant to say, “So many years ago there was even a story on television about this rich college boy who raped a female classmate, and his parents helped him flee the U.S. jurisdiction and hide out in Sweden from the authorities until his visa expired.”

        Sorry about any confusion my typographical error may have caused.

      • Red says:

        @funisnow:

        Point 2:

        Young women are probably more likely to be targeted because they are comparatively naive, socially inexperienced, trusting, and vulnerable. Middle-aged women are better able to spot iffy people and have better resources for getting help; they are less likely to be alone in the world. It is easy to make a young, anxious, fearful girl emotionally dependent on you before becoming sexually abusive; a knowledgeable older woman, not so much. Moreover, most women are married by the age of forty, so there is also the risk that the husband will find out and kill you.

        Point 3:

        You have got to be kidding me. Ever hear of Ted Bundy or Paul Bernardo? What about rapes that occur in abusive marriages? What about rapists with a known history of antisocial behavior or animal cruelty? What about child rapists who threaten to kill their victims if they tell?

        Point 4:

        Poor rapists are more likely to hang out with vulnerable, dependent women and find disadvantaged prey. For example, a man may attend AA meetings with the primary intention of gaining access to fresh meat, or offer to mentor a poor young girl. In the cases of incestuous rape, the victim is likely to be on the exact same economic level as the offender–or, if she is a distant relative with independent means, he may trick her into pitying him and swindle her out of money before sexually assaulting her. In other words, he will be an economic parasite as well as a sexual one.

        Your concept of what women find attractive is ridiculous. Most women who are serious about a good relationship place love, caring, and kindness before money–especially because women are perfectly capable of providing for themselves!

      • Red says:

        Oh, and subliminalportal, you are right. Remember Andrew Luster, the Max Factor rapist?

  3. blah says:

    Sounds like there is more than one motivation, as with most crimes.

    Some people seem to think that people who do the same thing always have the same motivation. So if they believe the motivation is power, they will get mad if you say it’s sex even sometimes. If they think it’s always sex, they will refuse to believe someone could be motivated by power/revenge ever.

    • emmatheemo says:

      Yes, some blogger once said that some theft happens because a person just wants something they don’t want to pay for, and some theft happens because of kleptomania (although you can say most theft is still about the material gain). Same could logically be with rape.

      • L.V.X. says:

        As far as I can tell, rape barely exists. Have you been raped? Do you know people who were raped? Have you been able to/raped someone?

        What is RAPE? It’s sex had that’s regretted. Or it’s a violent death, essentially.

      • emmatheemo says:

        Well, I’ve never been raped, but a female relative got attacked by a stranger, beaten and robbed. He tried to rape her, but couldn’t get it up, and she escaped. Everyone is fine though.

        I’m afraid all that fake rape and false accusations are starting to make people disbelieve that real rape victims exist. They do exist, but they’re drowning in the sea of regretted sex “victims”.

  4. Clarence says:

    Emma:

    Here it is. Hope you find it of some use eventually.

  5. Tom says:

    Steven Pinker has an absolutely superb analysis of the causes of rape in The Blank Slate. He completely demolishes the power argument and shows how silly it is. He also references various studies about rape so you should be able to find mroe sources there.

  6. L.V.X. says:

    They rape because that’s what they are accused of having done. They become guilty as Rapists when what they are accused having done, in violation of another person, has been proven in a court of law.

    Great article though. Also, there is a reddit post somewhere where people who have been accused of rape, or who have raped someone explain why they did what they did, or what happened in their mind.

    They range from the terrible to people merely being oblivious to social norms or sexual cues.

    The question still remains, if verbal No is No, then why does it actively mean Yes so often? LIke why do women say No, I can’t/won’t/shouldn’t/am not going to/whatever hook up with you, then go out of their way to unzip someones pants, gargle their cock, get the guy off, and then act like a victim later – when he hasn’t even said a word? It’s a confusing scenario for a guy. Because whatever after that he thinks, well she wants me, and I want her, so let’s have sex, and he makes moves and she’s compliant and they go further and end up having intercourse. Then, by Law, if she felt she was “coerced” or forced or taken advantage of in any way he automatically becomes the rapist, especially because she said “No” yet went ahead and took active initiative to hook up with the guy….

    Just some moar thog-tots.

    • emmatheemo says:

      I think some of what you’re talking about is the feminist-defined rape, which has nothing to do with real rape. In many countries, her feelings about the incident have more to say than your actions, on whether you’re considered a rapist or not. But this isn’t rape, so I wouldn’t include these guys in the study of why men REALLY rape.
      I don’t know why a woman would have sex with you (or try to have sex with you) first, and then claim you raped her. My guess is regret about having sex with you, or feeling rejected.

      • L.V.X. says:

        Why would she regret something she hadn’t dont yet?

        We fucked afte she claimed I raped her.

      • emmatheemo says:

        I read your story. My guess (only a guess) would be that you were too tired and didn’t have sex with her, so she felt rejected and decided to mess with your nerves. Or maybe it was some kind of shit test that you passed, by telling her to act like an adult. I’m not an expert on why women claim rape, and then jump into bed with a man, but these would be my guesses. Maybe in the future, I will find some studies that help me understand this better.

      • emmatheemo says:

        No matter what her reason for doing this was, it’s a sign it was time to slowly, carefully back away and then run.

      • L.V.X. says:

        Yeah. I knew that then as well as I know now.

        Hey your comments have been great.

        No woman has ever talked to me with such commendable civility surrounding this subject.

        I’m surprised, tbh.

      • emmatheemo says:

        Thanks. I discovered all that stuff about 2 years ago and have been trying to read up on facts and find out the truth.

  7. L.V.X. says:

    I’m leaving a terrible trail for myself here. Thank G-d it’s not old Apple’s Oregon Trail. I would’ve drowned amongst the Settler’s family in the river by now.

    My poorly executed point was basically how could one decry “rape” and actively pursue said “rapist” after denying their original desecrated claim?

  8. Dayyana says:

    I was raped by a Kenyan friend, even after many conversations in which I had told him that I believe sex is for within marriage only. He didn’t manage full penetration as I was resisting him so much and eventually abandoned the attempt after ejaculating on me and with my protests that he was really hurting me. He looked horrified when I told him that what he had done was rape. After being raped I wrote this to him:”Men must respect what a woman and her body are telling him. “No” means “No”! (I’d said “No!” maybe 50 times and kept trying to hold his wrists to stop him.)
    Forcing yourself on her only brings pain for her and frustration for you. Don’t do it. In addition, the bleeding leaves a nasty mess that needs to be washed from bed-covers and sheets and the injuries leave a woman more open to any infections you may have. DON’T DO IT AGAIN!
    My body is obviously built for faithfulness to a man who loves me and is willing to commit through marriage.
    You have totally broken my trust in you.”
    His reply: “I hear you Dayyana. Am sorry if i hurt you. I did not mean to. I was attracted to you and that is why that happened. This however, does not mean i do not respect you…! My respect for you is unmeasurable. I not only respect you but also have high admiration for a lady like you. I am lost for words on how to apologize and ask for forgiveness…I am on my knees for any frustrations i caused. I have never thought that i was the cause of bleeding….but if this was the case i am solely responsible for the pain and bear all all the blame. However, note that whatever i did is not out of any bad intention whatsoever.
    Sorry…..sorry……sorry…sorry…”
    My second email to him: “You need to know that I’m still sitting at the airport with tears running down my face when I think of last night and the betrayal of trust that I experienced.
    Please be far more sensitive to your wife and give her body lots of time to prepare for you (or use vaseline or another lubricant if necessary). Yes, rape within marriage exists too, when a husband forces himself on his wife who is unwilling at that particular moment. I will lend you a very helpful book called something like, “Why men want sex but women need love.” I think that you will find it is enlightening.
    You have talked of willing hearts. You cannot force willingness by brute strength. Where the heart is not willing the body will not be either. You need to play more with your wife, tickling, laughing, cuddling, asking what she likes and what she is not comfortable with, and taking LOTS of time if necessary. Play your cards right and you can have fun sex within your marriage. (His was an arranged marriage and he had complained that married sex wasn’t necessarily “fun”.)”
    His reply: “Ok…thank you for your piece of advice. What i did may not be right Dayyana, but am sure i understand all those bits about making a woman get to her orgasm.
    I feel embarrassed and even feel stupid when you tell me this kind of statement. I have never treated lady with malicious intent….however, all my intention is clean.”
    This is the same friend who had always in the past been very considerate of me and was so worried yesterday when he’d tried to phone me 9 times and I didn’t answer (my phone was left at home) that he was ready to call the police.
    And LVX, believe it or not, I am now considering consensual sex with him so that the rape memories might be replaced with gentle memories (and also coz I’m mad at God for allowing the rape, and because I am attracted to my friend but resisted him because we are not married, and because this whole thing has totally messed with my head). If I go ahead I will make it clear that I am NOT rewarding him for the rape.

  9. Rene says:

    You say: “Power seems to be the motivation much less often. It often shows up as desire to rape because it’s exciting, to prove masculinity or out of anger.”

    Please note: TO PROVE MASCULINITY.
    Does that not sound like power to you?

  10. nate says:

    I think we all fail to look at the fundamentals of what is really going on. The reality is that the desire to rape or want to be raped is natural and it stems from something so much smaller and yet so much more powerful than we, hormones. Animals kill each other
    and starve themselves based on this. We are no different other than the fact that we believe we can overpower our hormones with our decisions of right and wrong. No woman truly understands what its like to be a man with healthy testosterone altering his decision making every few seconds. Even pregnant women have poor control of reality during her hormonal fluctuations and find herself behaving unpredictably. Yet we don’t want to hear in the court room that hormones was the cause. I have been very fortunate not because I’m a good person (I am) but because I tried to distance myself from girls in a vulnerable state. That has taken all the energy I had to do it. The reason I conclude its hormones and not my desire is because I’m older now and my levels have subsided. Now, I can easily practice my free will.

    • emmatheemo says:

      Sorry nate, but hormones are a poor excuse for rape (or murder, so I don’t like when they are used to excuse women either). I know the male sex drive is powerful, but most men can prevent themselves from raping. In fact it’s pretty surprising how white knighty most western men are, they seem to take real rape more seriously than even the women.

      Those who can’t prevent themselves from forcing a woman into sex should be able to say so and give up both certain freedoms and responsibility. We don’t hold children accountable for example (or give them a lot of rights).

      However, I’m curious, what did you mean by “girls in a vulnerable state”?

      • nate says:

        I am not saying that we don’t have ultimate control, I am saying that hormones are far more powerful than we give credit. Stallions are unpredictable and some cannot be controlled unless the testicles are removed. Same with bulls and many mammals. I would like to see a study on testosterone to see if there is any relevance. Asians have less testosterone, in fact, they don’t have to use deoderant. Africans have the highest. I would like to see if there is a correlation between rape and hormones. My first sexual encounter with a female was so strong that even though I wanted to stop my body didn’t obey, though you say we should have full control. Luckily, it was not rape. Again, you being a female and most males who are in denial would say that.

        Unfortunately, you will never understand a man’s body. Look how sex through porn and prostitution is eating away at our society, not because the women want it, just waiting for a day such as the Rodney king incident or a catastrophic event like hurricane Katrina and almost every young male feels relieved that he no longer have to hold back the beast from within. The rape starts. If what you are saying is true, why has this been a problem since the beginning of mankind. I’m sorry if I speak the thoughts of many men’s minds who don’t want to appear socially incorrect.

        An example of a vulnerable woman is one who is intoxicated.

      • emmatheemo says:

        I might not get to feel how a man feels, but I know justice, and know (like most men know) that real rape is wrong, and as such hormones are not an excuse. But if it was not your intention to excuse it, then it’s not that relevant.

        Btw, it seems I might have been right – you quite possibly think that normal behavior is rapey. Having sex with a drunk woman is not automatically rape. Or not stopping when she changes her mind in the middle of the act.

      • nate says:

        LOL, that is indeed a tough one, if a woman allows you to put it and later tells you to stop I think it should be a misdemeanor at most but unfortunately it is treated as rape. I’m from Texas.

    • Emma the Emo says:

      I just want to add, maybe I misunderstood you and you weren’t really excusing rreal rape, but it sounded like it.
      But I just want to add that nowadays many things are viewed as rape by men, when they really aren’t.
      For example, if she allowed you to put your penis halfway in, and you couldn’t resist and put it all the way in, it’s not rape. And if you had sex with a drunk chick, it also isn’t rape, yet she was in a “vulnerable state”. So this is why I ask what you mean by “girls in a vulnerable state”. I ask, because many men are convinced they are borderline rapists, when they are in fact normal, and their behavior is wanted most of the time anyway.

      • nate says:

        I have been to music rallies and have observed groups of guys just waiting till the girls are so vunerable that they can barely walk or talk. In my book that’s wrong and to take advantage would be rape.

      • emmatheemo says:

        But alcohol doesn’t excuse actions you do while drunk. Of course, taking advantage of a passed out woman should be punishable, but I am talking about trying to get moving drunk girls in bed with you. One thing is to have sex with a sleeping woman, another is to convince a drunk one to have sex with you.

      • nate says:

        Wow you are lenient, but it isn’t hard to get a woman who barely knows where she is into your bed. Chances are when she wakes up in the morning she will not know where she is or even know who you are. She just might call the police. I had a friend who this happened to and he begged her for thirty minutes on his knees for her not to call the police and was trying to get her to understand that he was as innocent as she was and that calling would ruin his life. Now he would not dare go for a drunk female. Alcohol has different effects on people. Some are coherent while others are not.

      • emmatheemo says:

        Of course she could call the police, but now you are arguing that we shouldn’t do it NOT because it’s morally wrong, but because it’s dangerous for the guy.

        But if the law didn’t let women regret sex and call it rape, he wouldn’t be in any danger. So the question still remains – should this be something the law must concern itself with?
        I personally think it shouldn’t. The law doesn’t excuse anyone who kills someone while drunk. It also shouldn’t insist women aren’t responsible for their actions while drunk. Not remembering what you were doing the night before (and with whom) doesn’t mean you didn’t do it.

        When we get drunk in public, we give up the ability to make good decisions, but it’s on us, not everyone else. Men are not there to protect women from their own bad decisions.

        Also, a drunk woman won’t go home with just anybody. Might even try to fight you for trying to drag her off, if she doesn’t like you. But if she ends up responding to your affection, it’s her actions, remember that.

      • nate says:

        Yes Emma, I think its morally wrong. Just because a woman has made the wrong decision to become intoxicated does not give anyone the right to take advantage of her. I don’t know what kind of drunk women you have been around but the few I have seen can’t put up a fight or give a good scream. So you are saying I can approach a drunk woman and convince her that I can help her find her friends and take her home and keep her awake before passing out and have my way with her and not be charged with rape? I do appreciate you standing up for us guys and trying to find some reasonable common ground but not on this one.

      • emmatheemo says:

        But you’ve admittedly have limited experience with drunk women, too. Where did you get this scenario? It doesn’t sound the way it usually happens.

        And I’m not saying it’s always right, but not everything morally wrong needs to have a prison sentence attached to it. Not saying please and thank you is morally wrong. Being rude, racist or insensitive is morally wrong, but the law shouldn’t deal with that. Allowing a drunk person to give you their money is wrong, but it isn’t robbery.

      • nate says:

        I have been around many drunk women if you go by drunk driving law standards, but I have been around a few incoherently drunk women which is my focus. Taking someones money is one thing but taking possession of someones body is a totally different category. I understand how difficult it makes it to call it rape because it opens up a big can of worms as to consent vs. none. I do respect your stance that we should be responsible for our actions. A woman jogging through the roughest part of our neighborhood with no clothes isn’t making a wise choice but still have the right that her body is not tampered with.

      • emmatheemo says:

        You still didn’t answer my question though – should we let go those people who shot someone while obviously incoherent?

      • emmatheemo says:

        The difference is, the naked jogger will still resist when attacked, making the rape/not rape question pretty clear cut. If she doesn’t mind it, it’s not rape (right?)

        The incoherent one has to make a similar effort for it to be rape. If she doesn’t mind it, it’s not rape, because actions of drunks are to be judged by the law as if the person was sober.

      • nate says:

        Yes, I agree and that is when a drunk person makes actions such as driving a vehicle. But the difference is when the drunk person is not taking action due to inebriation. Now if the naked woman running through a bad neighborhood and stumbles and hit her head and end up in a vegetable state its ok to rape her because A) its unwise to be running naked in a bad neighborhood and B)she can’t fight or say no due to being impaired. By your standards its okay.

      • emmatheemo says:

        When does a drunk person stop taking action? What is the difference between action and what you call inaction? Your definition of inaction is false. What you call inaction is, in normal terms, reaction to other people’s actions. Reactions are still actions, so you are not getting away from responsibility nontheless.

        You are acting ALL THE TIME while remaining conscious. Only when you are passed out can you claim to be TRULY INACTIVE.

        Your analogy is false.

      • nate says:

        Then by your analogy I can have sex with a mentally retarded indiviual.

      • emmatheemo says:

        A retarded individual will have a guardian taking care of them if they are that retarded. If they do not, you can assume they are independent enough to have sex with you. If you make it illegal to have sex with retarded people, how are they gonna get laid? Sure they can get laid with each other, but I think you’re unfairly narrowing their dating pool.

      • nate says:

        I appreciate your careful thoughts. Like most inebriated females, retarded individuals have guardians but the windows for being alone still exist (child abduction happens often). As we agreed earlier, there are different types of coherence among drunken individuals. Some mentally handicapped children can easily be persuaded to get into a vehicle or even to have sex without completely understanding the consequences. For the most part, it is easy to determine that a person is retarded or inebriated beyond understanding. Therefore, this is why we have laws to protect such as every case is different and there isn’t a solid line that can be drawn. You propose a law where it is rape if the victim is only passed out. What if the victim was passed out at the bar and awaken and taken to the offender’s house? What if the overly intoxicated individual was barely awake for the journey to the bedroom and passed out upon beginning intercourse? Or perhaps the victim faded in and out as many testimonies that have been revealed in past trials. Like you, I wish I could draw distinct lines in our laws to help define and settle every case but it isn’t a reality. Twins commit the same crime in every way except intent may be different which is why we have judge with jury trials. As I mentioned earlier in reference to the teen gang rape that happened this year of a girl whom the boys knew would not ordinarily be interested in them, yet they waited until she was intoxicated beyond understanding and raped her and thought that she would not remember. She experienced repetitive moment of being aware and being passed out. Fortunately, she was able to identify a few of the violaters. I can’t say I have an answer other than taking on each case as they come and listening to the witnesses and testimonies in regards to the victim’s incapacity (just like you would with a mentally retarded individual).

      • nate says:

        I do want to clarify that you are talking about a drunk woman in compliance and I am talking about a drunk woman that hasn’t complied but is obviously incoherent.

      • emmatheemo says:

        So, it’s ok to let someone go, if they kill someone while they were obviously incoherent? They’re not guilty, right?

      • nate says:

        Getting behind the wheel of a car and driving drunk that person is held accountable. Knowingly picking up a female, or male who is incoherently drunk and raping him or her, that person should be held accountable too. Both situations involve an incoherent and a coherent individual only the roles are swapped. Bodily harm is bodily harm. Agreed?

      • emmatheemo says:

        “Bodily harm is bodily harm. Agreed?”
        agreed, but you are assuming bodily harm where there is none. When you have sex with someone very drunk, it doesn’t automatically lead to “bodily harm” of any kind.

        Also, don’t you see you are employing a double standard? First you are saying that an incoherent person is ACCOUNTABLE for everything they do while drunk.
        Next thing you are saying that an incoherent person is NOT ACCOUNTABLE for everything they do while drunk.
        Remember, an incoherent, according you you, can consent to driving a car. But they can’t consent to sex?

        Also, you are punished by law for drunk driving, even if you don’t end up hurting anyone, or just yourself. If women are so helpless and lacking in agency that the law needs to look after them when they get drunk like a pig, shouldn’t we illegalize drinking and fucking of any kind? If this is so dangerous, shuoldn’t both men and women be punished for being involved in drunk sex or attempts of such? After all, bodily harm is bodily harm.

      • nate says:

        No, not a double standard. No where did I say an incoherent person cannot cosent, talking about one who is not showing an effort to consent or not consent due to incoherence. Ex: a mentally retarded individual. I reread my past post and could not find where I said an incoherent person driving drunk is not accountable, they are. A person who is drunk and can drive a car is a person who can take action. A person who can’t walk and can’t drive and barely talks is in a much different state. It is not their action of compliance to have sex, it is their inability to comply or not comply. Otherwise I can go to a party and spice upa girl’s drink and hav sex with no resistance

      • emmatheemo says:

        No, you can’t just “spike a girl’s drink” by that logic. There is a difference between being drugged and drugging yourself. You are not legally responsible for your actions if someone else drugs you. You ARE responsible, if you take those drugs yourself, knowingly.

        Sex with passed out person –> punishment
        Sex with not passed out person –> no punishment.
        Making a person passed out, drugged or high against their will –>punishment.

        It’s very easy. If they put themselves in that state and are not passed out, it’s not your responsibility to protect them from themselves. If you put a gun in their hand and they use it as you tell them to, they are still guilty (but so are you). If they are totally inactive, they are passed out.

        If you spike their drink and make them shoot someone, they are not guilty (or responsible for any other actions you made them do by drugging them)

      • nate says:

        So maybe spiking needs to be further defined. Perhaps, she was handed a drink at a party with more alcohol or Ever Clear, which is much harder to detect as having a much more potent intoxication.

      • M. says:

        “For example, if she allowed you to put your penis halfway in, and you couldn’t resist and put it all the way in, it’s not rape.”

        That’s fucked up. “Couldn’t resist?” Are you insinuating there are situations where men have no control of themselves? If men can’t control themselves and listen they’re no better than an animal and should be treated as such.

      • emmatheemo says:

        That’s besides the point. If he already put his penis halfway in, the “damage” is done. Putting it all the way in would have no gravity of a real forcible rape. What next? “He couldn’t resist smoking a cigarette at a bus station, he’s an animal, lets put him away for attempted murder”?

    • Eivind Berge says:

      Nate, it seems you have bought into the feminist definition of rape, and find it hard to avoid raping in that sense. That is true — it is highly unnatural for men to avoid raping by feminist standards, but why condone these hateful norms against yourself? You mention intoxicated women as an example, but taking advantage of intoxicated women is not rape. Sex with very drunk, but willing women is only rape according to feminist jurisprudence, and if that’s the type of situation you are trying to avoid, then that says more about your level of feminist brainwashing than men’s propensity to rape. Likewise if a woman changes her mind at the last minute, then most men would find it very hard to stop, but that is not real rape either. The traditional, reasonable definition of rape would take that into account and not convict a man if the woman went willingly into his bed, and women knew better than being so foolish if they did not want sex, knowing the law wouldn’t be there for them. Now feminist law entitles women to tempt men’s instincts in every way, but it is the law there is something wrong with, not men. Now, if social order breaks down, sure there will be a lot of rape, but it’s not accurate to say that most men can barely contain themselves from raping under normal circumstances, with rape reasonably defined.

      • nate says:

        Thanks for your clarification on the difference between feminist rape and normal rape. I have a sister who works in the prison system and she said she have viewed men files in regards to rapes vs punishments. She said that the standards for rapes or definitions make very little sense. For example, a black man would receive 10 years for raping a 16 year old where as a white man raping a 18 month baby would receive 4 years. She said after viewing many cases she seen large race related disparities. Perhaps you are right about our current laws in regards to the definition, but it would be wise for a man not to entertain a drunk woman because at the end of the day her word has more weight. Just saying often rape and its severity is defined in the court room. As for rape happening during catastrophies I’m not saying most men can’t contain themselves, I’m saying that a lot of men will not, especially young men. I was young once, I know what its like to feel the call of the wild. I have never raped.

    • Emma the Emo says:

      There is one more thing I want to say.

      If you start making an exception to incoherent drunks (claim they are not passed out, but still count as “inactive” by your personal standard), then you will, eventually, have to include COHERENT drunk people in your rape definition. Because
      1)People react to same amounts of alcohol very individually, and act differently when simply drunk and when too drunk/incoherent.
      2)The man will often have alcohol in his blood, which affects his judgement of the woman’s state. Is he obligated to guess her state?

      How are you going to differentiate your example where an evil man picks up an incoherent woman, from all those cases where 2 people simply got drunk and had sex together? The line has to be pretty clear to be in the law, and here it really isn’t. Applying the law to extremely vague things will make a mess.
      That’s one reason why I prefer a much clearer line of passed out/not passed out.

      • nate says:

        I think you clipped out the wrong page. That one is talking about hormones. But anyways I understand the need for a clear line as we have many breaches in the law. For example if a person is declared mentally insane he or she can be acquitted of murder. Yet, as we both agree alcohol is a social responsibility, we choose to drink which may cause us to act in an insane type of manner. But your answer opens the door for date rape drugs where it can be said again that the woman is in compliance. There have been many teenage girls who have gotten drunk for the first time only to find themselves the product of gang rape and only able to remember very little of it. By your standards it should not count as rape. Is that what you are saying?

      • emmatheemo says:

        “But your answer opens the door for date rape drugs where it can be said again that the woman is in compliance.”

        No it does not. Your own words confirm so:
        “Yet, as we both agree alcohol is a social responsibility, we choose to drink which may cause us to act in an insane type of manner.”
        – that’s exactly what I’m saying. If YOU take any drugs, YOU are responsible for everything you do while on these drugs.

        If SOMEONE spikes your drink, or forces you to take them, THEY are responsible for whatever insane things you do while on them, including allowing them to have sex with you. If someone makes you take drugs against your will so they could have sex with you, it is rape.

        Btw, most of the time, when a woman claims her drink has been spiked, no such drug is found in her system. It’s usually just self-administered alcohol, which is her own doing, and the law should stay out of it.

      • nate says:

        In regards to spiking ones drink as you define it, and it resulting in the perpetrator being responsible, I agree 100 percent.

      • emmatheemo says:

        As for your teenage example, if she was passed out, the men commit a crime. If she was not passed out but let them have it, it’s not a crime. Frankly, “inaction” is an inconsistent trait of victimhood. If your teenage girl worked as a nanny and got so drunk on the job she neglected the kids, she would be condemned for her inaction just the same. You wouldn’t then say “But she didn’t *do* anything”. Do you want a society where people are protected from themselves while they are drunk but conscious? Then why not agree to my idea of making drinking and fucking (including attempts) illegal for both sexes?

      • nate says:

        She experienced both, passed out and moments of being awake. She claimed the inability to move, talk or act in a progressive way to stop the attack. By your definition was she raped or not? By mine she was. The boys knew she was intoxicated beyond understanding. See how even drawing a line based upon only being passed out is not a solid solution?

      • emmatheemo says:

        It’s as solid as it needs to be. Human behavior is in general not divided by solid lines in any case. The law knows this and must be an approximation. You simply can’t make a law for every little variation out there. The law needs to be as effective and just as it can be. And criminalizing MORE things is worse in that regard, than criminalizing LESS.

        I don’t think she was raped. I don’t think the law should concern itself with this. The law is not your nanny, it’s not there to protect you no matter how much you play with danger and no matter how vague and uncertain your victimization is. Maybe teenage girls (or anyone else, really) should think about that, before getting THAT drunk with anyone around. Or getting that drunk at all.

        It might as well be wrong to accept money or sex from a very drunk or incoherent person. But this is an individual matter, not a law matter. Do you understand that the law is where you allow other people determine your fate? It’s a powerful thing, it’s not to be used on trifles. It’s not to be defined vaguely, unless you want to fall victim to it’s whims. It’s there to protect individuals from other individuals, when the individual can’t do it themselves. An individual is perfectly capable of saying no to getting incoherently drunk, to the point of not knowing if they were a victim or were in on it. It’s not a matter of the law. However, we don’t expect individuals to be capable of fighting off any rapist, especially if they are sleeping. That’s why that is a matter of the law, and not the other thing.

      • nate says:

        I understand where you choose to draw your line. And of course the persuaded, incoherent , and mentally retarded raped child also falls upon your definition of trifles. Yes there is a need to keep laws basic, but laws change based on growing population and new technologies, new alcoholic beverages produced with new side-effects. Years ago, it wasn’t a crime to drive drunk but now with more traffic densities the laws have changed. Laws don’t remain basic, they can’t. If a drunk man walks into traffic it is our responsibility to make sure we don’t run over him. Though he is drunk, he has rights. Yes, he is responsible for public toxication but we are only responsible for making sure we don’t commit an offense against him. And the same with taking someone whom we obviously know is mentally handicapped or drunk beyond cognition, and excercising our own atrocities against them. It is impossible for any person to calculate the effect of how much they drink before becoming incoherent. It could take just one sip, you can’t always calculate that. I know its hard but we should have the right for our bodies to not be vandalized regardless of how coherent or incoherent we may be. Rape can end up with body damages or life threatening diseases or even abortion, unless another unplanned child is allowed to enter this world. Emma, your laws make it easy for perpetrators and sexual offenders to carry out advanced sexually cruel attacks without punishment. The victim is incoherently drunk and 50 men are standing in line waiting their turn…. That’s only a trifle? But I do respect your stance as you do mean well. We both are concerned about social responsibility.

      • emmatheemo says:

        If we run over someone who’s not supposed to be there ( like an incoherent person walking on a highway who jumps out in front of you) while we aren’t breaking any driving laws, we don’t automatically go to jail for it either. Doesn’t it tell you something?

        “And the same with taking someone whom we obviously know is mentally handicapped or drunk beyond cognition, and excercising our own atrocities against them.”
        You don’t get it. Most of the time, this is not about someone evil exercising astrocities. Most of the time it’s drunk people having consensual sex, and one drunk person gets a blackout or loses consciousness in the middle of sex for a while. Later that irresponsible little shit will claim they were raped, while guillible fools like you allow them to, because “there are evil men out there who will use this law loophole to perpetrate astrocities”.You seem to have limited understanding of why people even drink that much. A lot of the time, it’s to let loose and get laid.

        I have no other choice but to consider you an incorrigibly brainwashed feminist rape supporter. Sorry.

      • nate says:

        You can start name-calling if you want, but if you had more socially responsible guys like me in this world who took it upon themselves to back off rather than persuade a sloppy drunk woman or seriously mentally handicap kid into the bed room, it would be a much better place.

      • emmatheemo says:

        I wasn’t name-calling, I was stating a fact.

        A person who gets incoherently drunk in public is a moron.

        A man who thinks laws is the only tool that can or should fix all our problems is a guilible fool.

        You don’t actually realize how dangerous you are. You’re doing more harm than good in this world, if you so strongly support laws where any regretted drunk sex results in men going to jail. You can stay away from drunk girls, and steer them away from danger if you wish, but stay out of things you harm more than you help.

      • nate says:

        A fact lol. You are funny.
        A person who think law is the only tool that can or should fix all our problem is a gullible fool.” I aged which is why I don’t believe law is the only tool.

        You can’t draw one solid line and expect it to solve our problems, it doesn’t(passed out).

        You can’t see how dangerous your stance is. Your “passed out” only rule is just as dangerous if not more.

        Which is why it ISN’T the law and NEVER will be.

      • emmatheemo says:

        You do a great disservice to women, too. Perhaps if people like you didn’t convince women they have a right to cry rape after drunk sex happens to them, there would be fewer women thinking getting so drunk among lots of people is okay. In general, it’s pretty baffling to me that people think they can take a ton of drugs in public and expect the law to take care of the mess that follows, carefully determining (though mind-reading abilities, no doubt), exactly at which point you wanted sex, at which you didn’t, what exactly you don’t remember doing and what you are just lying about.

      • nate says:

        I am glad to provide this “disservice” the end results is that a drunk woman or mentally retarded person don’t end up in my bed. I can’t speak for the other sexual offenders who end up in jail. I expect their judge, attorney and jury to hash that out.

        Because neither your rules or mine alone is good enough.

      • nate says:

        Since you are now calling me a “gullible fool” :-), guys like me don’t get caught in those situations. I’m completely aware of why people get drunk and it is not for the most part to get laid, its to relax and have fun. Yes, I understand that there are those who use it for sex and their intentions are obvious. You, blatantly refuse to acknowledge those who get drunk that don’t share the same intentions. We have different takes on this, I’ve been to many clubs and bars, I’ve made my observations and have drawn my lines. Its okay to disagree.

      • emmatheemo says:

        nate,
        it would be ok to disgaree if you didn’t simply ignore my arguments and pretend your point wasn’t disproven.

        nate: “it’s not ok to touch intoxicated women”.

        me: “is someone not responsible for consenting to sex even if very drunk?”

        nate: “they are, but i’m talking about incoherent women”

        me: “Ok, is someone not guilty of murder if they killed someone while incoherently drunk, then?”

        nate: “no, an incoherent person is responsible for their actions then, because they were active. An incoherent woman can’t consent to sex cuz she’s not active”

        me: “ok, is an incoherent nanny not guilty of child neglect, if she gets so drunk she is INactive, then?”

        nate:”…”

        That’s only a small part of what you are doing.

      • nate says:

        Im not ignoring your ararguments, you just don’t completely understand mine. I didn’t say once that it was not okay to touch an intoxicated person.I didn’t say someone can’t be responsible for consenting to sex if very drunk. Those are false paraphrasees. And yes, if someone commits a crime while being drunk they are responsible.

        If a nanny drinks till she is incoherent while watching kids, she is responsible. But if a parent hands over a child to an “overly intoxicated” nanny, the parents may be responsible and not the nanny if the nanny displayed total incoherence(which is not necessarily passed out). Emma, this is what courts are for. See how vague situations can be? Yet we don’t give every nanny an alcohol test. By your rules, the nanny is solely responsible unless she is completely passed out.

        You are saying if a man is sloppy drunk and someone who he has never met pursuades him to lay down and cuts his ear off, because the drunk man didn’t verbally or physically show resistance, the drunk man is responsible but the ear slicer is not. Only if the drunk man passes out will he escape accountability. Yes, I see your argument and I disagree!

      • emmatheemo says:

        And remember. The things you support will bite you in the ass one day.

      • nate says:

        I will, just don’t forget the things that you support when it bite you in yours, there is no perfect law.

      • emmatheemo says:

        Lol, no, my views will not bite me, as I’m not a moron who gets drunk or high to such an extent alone, much less in public. The only way I can be victimized is by a REASONABLE rape definition, not yours. You, however, support an unreasonable rape definition, which will bite you in the ass, unless you demand every woman you have sex with takes a blood alcohol test.

      • emmatheemo says:

        You better make sure you are never seen by a drunk woman, or seen with a drunk woman. You better not try to save one from herself or some evil man. She might remember only that YOU were grabbing her arm, so you must have raped her. The other guy will confirm it.

      • nate says:

        You, who are socially responsible, go out to an event. You choose sprite instead of alcohol. Some stranger walks by and spikes your drink while you are unaware (don’t dare say it isn’t possible). You drink the drrink and it takes a while for it to run its course. The srtranger leaves thinking the spike was ineffective. Finally, the drug does have an effect and you reasonably appear impaired. You don’t know who you are or where you are at. You can barely move and everyone notices your incoherence. Some guys who are unaware that you have been drugged coax you to their van and have unprotected sex with you. You never put up a fight, because you can’t neither have you given them consent. But under your law of “passed out” the guys did nothing wrong. The only violator is the guy who spiked your drink but he is no longer around. Yeah by my standards you are protected from the sexual incidents like these but by yours you are not because you wasn’t passed out. Even you can be bitten in the ass by your law. If your law is passed, I hope you don’t go to any social functions. You are better off at your home 24/7 because your law would cause an increase in perpetrators like these. Incoherent people which includes the mentally retarded or impaired, those who self-induced themselves with drugs or alcohol, or was induced by others(whether by force or not), are protected by the law under my view. Sorry, in some situations you can’t draw one
        line. Yes, there will always be people who try to manipulate the system, or lie like so many women who does. That’s why we have trials. Show me any set of laws created by man and I will show you an imperfect system.

      • emmatheemo says:

        Btw, you inadvertently pointed out another reason why this is nothing a law should deal with: if she experienced both passed out and not passed out states, the man/men that have sex with her may or may not notice the passed out states and think she is conscious. There is huge doubt he took advantage of a sleeping woman. He doesn’t know she didn’t talk because she couldn’t, which makes it a “she said he said” case. No such mess should ever reach the court and use up finite police resources.

      • nate says:

        Lol, it is impossible for courts not to deal with he-said or she-said, besides there was more than one witness, it was a gang rape. Questioning the boys one by one eventually led up to their guilt of raping her without obvious permission. As petty as this case seems to you, that’s why we question the parties involved and have trials. I think small claims courts have many cases which I would call trifles, yet I believe that these fundamental cases are absolutely necessary to establish equality and justice in our society.

      • emmatheemo says:

        And what will these witnesses tell them exactly? That a drunk girl had sex with 50 men? The only way that could be turned into a rape is if you already include “sex with drunks” as a rape.

        “Questioning the boys one by one eventually led up to their guilt of raping her without obvious permission.”
        Sex with someone “without obvious permission” is not rape. For it to be rape, there has to be force, threats or such, and she needs to resist as best as she can. Let me guess, you also believe that rape is simple sex without consent, don’t you?

  11. nate says:

    Dayyana, I just want to say I think you are doing right by giving your friend a second chance. He had no intentions on raping you. Between the hormones and physical stimulation, it was no longer him but his body taking over doing what it is programmed to do which is to procreate. Its only when a woman enters her prime that she can even remotely have a clue of what men go through. I’m wishing you both a fruitful relationship.

  12. nate says:

    I must say yes you are right, they need certain freedoms taken away. I never condone rape, I just deeply understand how it can be. Most males do. Don’t be tricked by the white western males whom many have been found in Thailand in the bed with kids, although consensual, but is still considered rape by American standards.

    • emmatheemo says:

      True, the harshest persecutors of sex with teens will often go have sex with teens (never heard of anyone doing children here, but that is here). These politicians will also punish other men for prostitution, but use it themselves.

  13. Sex with retarded (ahem “special”) people shows the entire craziness of PC (political correctness)

    On the one hand they may never have sex without being raped. Because they can not consent. I doubt they can consent to sex with another retarded person. If in doubt, the MAN is always the rapist.

    But then, one must not prevent them from having offspring, even if almost invariable is retarded or otherwise genetically damaged and incapable of leading a productive life. And the mother would not be able to raise, feed, and finance the child.

    It really ought to be the opposite. Let them have fun, let them have sex. Put some precautions up, if you want to avoid abuse. A guardian, a psychologist interview, a 2 day cool off period before sex. And do everything for them not to become pregnant with a child that they will not be able to rear, and that will never lead an independent productive life.

  14. Emma, a blood alcohol test is far from sufficient before sex.

    Get a lawyer before courting: 34 precautions before risking sex with a woman         &#160

  15. ; Get a lawyer before sex: 27 precautions before risking sex with a woman

    You need to test for all kinds of other drugs, document consent, prove consent was never withdrawn, do a background check on the age, study the local laws on underage sex, ……

    ===============

    Actually, a great article. Asking rapists about rape is a good idea.

    PC, and feminists rarely do the most obvious. Better teach non-violent students at elite colleges not to rape.

  16. J Gates says:

    Emma, thanks alot for your post. I am getting seriously annoyed at idiots who think rape is about power but I don’t have many sources to prove it to them. I honestly think it’s a myth propagated by feminists trying to explain the actions of men when the very harsh reality is that some people are just born with no self control…..

    Do you have anymore sources which kill this silly “rape is power” myth?

  17. Pingback: I Hate Brussels Sprouts. | Not A Feminist

  18. bo jangles says:

    Its extremely important that the legal system doesn’t convict innocent people, otherwise it becomes just as much of a harm on society as the criminals it is trying to catch. Even the line of being passed out isn’t as strong as it seems..I’ve been so drunk I did a bunch of crazy things (not passed out), but I didn’t remember any of it. A woman goes home with a man, passes out(or not) on the bed..sex..and the next morning she has no idea what happened. What is for sure though is that if a man is consistently doing an illegal act even if right on the line, he is likely to be caught and convicted one day. A woman who constantly puts herself right at the line too is making it more likely that she gets raped one day Its alot like when people tell me a story about how they were robbed or something horrible happened to them while traveling in third world countries, I start asking them a list I have. Were you in a dangerous part of town? Were you doing something illegal? You don’t speak the language do you? Were you alone? Were you drunk? Was it night?… Invariably its yes, yes, yes, yes…… and I’m like “Holy Shit and something bad happened to you, who could have guessed???”

  19. Pingback: Rape - Is it ever the victims fault? - Page 6 - Religious Education Forum

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