Why do some women want to be men?

I know 3 girls who are or were rather negative towards the idea of femininity. They are somewhat different in their views, but the common thing seems to be that they value masculine ideals/traits more than the feminine ones. The things looked up to are usually strength, ability to be intimidating and smarts or technical abilities. Power is what is wanted. The feminine is seen as weak and less important.

It’s hard to tell why they chose to value the masculine more than the feminine, but they all have masculine fathers. One of the fathers was even abusive, constantly devaluing femininity, while the other two were decent, and looked up to by their children.

Recently I’ve been reading some feminist books and stuff on Norwegian gender studies, and they all tell about theories of how women came to be oppressed. One idea is that everything that is associated with femininity is valued less than what is associated with masculinity. Feelings are associated with women and rationality with men, and we value the latter more. That is one example. Psychologist Berit Ås suggested that there is a male culture and female culture1, and the former has more power. Masculine culture is using techniques (like shaming, making them invisible or ridiculing) to make women feel inferior, which leads to men having all the power and women being oppressed, never realizing their potential. So, is it this that makes those three girls devalue femininity and strive to be masculine? Maybe. But such a system wouldn’t work if everyone was like these girls. Patriarchy is supposed to lead to women feeling inferior and remaining in “inferior” housewife positions, instead of rebelling and deciding to be masculine instead. So either this explanation is bad, or the women in my example are exceptional2.

When I told about this to a few knowledgeable friends, they asked me if those girls were exposed to feminism. They suggested that instead of patriarchy, feminism was to blame. I can kinda see that, as some feminists really devalue traditional feminine roles and traits and tell us to be more like men – ambitious and striving for status through work. I guess these feminists help their own oppressors by putting male traits above female traits…

So what makes some women want to be men? I’m not sure, but it might very well be that mysterious “symbolic universe” feminists talk about. Certain dichotomies/ideals that exist in our culture, which constantly affect us, even if we can’t quite grasp what is making us think the way we do. Hard to grasp, but easy to see in its results. Results being unhappy people applying these ideals in a dysfunctional way.

Whatever makes women want to be men, it’s not making them happy. Thinking you’re weak and worthless because you’re a woman sucks, and I wish both traditional-minded people and feminists stopped helping women detest themselves.

_________________________________________________________________________

  1. “Kjønnsforskning”, Jørgen Lorentzen&Wencke Muhleisen, page 106.
  2. Plus to really control someone, a good idea would be to make them believe their position is good, insead of devaluing them and making them rebel…
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18 Responses to Why do some women want to be men?

  1. Wanting to be strong, intimidating and smart does not equal wanting to be a man. It equals wanting power, which is a good thing to have regardless of what gender you are. Being strong and intimidating can make the difference in whether or not you are killed, raped or stolen from. Being smart and good at technical stuff means you can make money, which is how you get a secure home, freedom to travel and various fun consumer goods.

    The Victorian Era ideal of the “traditional feminine” is someone who is kind and nurturing, but does not have the physical power to protect herself or the economic power to support herself on her own. Kindness and nurturing are good things! But the “traditional” gender norm scheme leads to abuse. Because when one partner, the man, is taught that being masculine means being good at violence…and that women should obey him because he is smarter…and the other partner, the woman, is taught that her main role is to nurture others, and that if she leaves him she won’t survive…if he decides to use violence on her, she has no recourse.

    In a competitive capitalist society like ours, nurturing is important to society, but for the individual, power is more important to have. If you are nurturing, those around you will be happier, but if you have power, you will be able to live life on your own terms, and not be at the mercy of people who may turn out to be abusive. That is why economic ambition matters, regardless of whether you are male or female…the “symbolic universe”, whatever that is, has nothing to do with it.

    None of this has anything to do with gender, really. Different societies have different ideas of what gender roles should be; the idea of innately “masculine” and “feminine” personality traits is the product of a limited viewpoint. Do some reading in anthropology and you’ll understand that our species has an enormous diversity of cultural roles: Mead’s “Sex and Temperament” might be a good place to start.

    My impression is that when women are able to achieve power through their work, they’re happy. They don’t see themselves as trying to be men, or their ambition and smarts as masculine traits. They just see themselves as women who are doing important work and being recognized for it.

    The feminist movement came about because of artificial social constructions that limited women’s ability to do useful intellectual work and be recognized for it, as well as women’s ability to have the economic independence necessary to leave abusive situations and make sure their kids are also safe. I suggest you read the work on first-wave feminists such as Wollstonecraft, as well as the texts by their male contemporaries that describe women as incapable of thought, to understand what I’m talking about here. Also recommended is the work of Islamic-world feminists Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Nawal El-Saadawi.

    The point in your second footnote is a good one. Feminists often mention that rigid gender roles hurt men, too, by devaluing “feminine” traits that they also have. One way to look at it is that lower-class white men are kept from rebelling against the male power elite by being made to believe they are superior to women and black men, and distracted by their fear of feminist and black revolt/insubordination from making common cause with them against a common oppressor.

    • emmatheemo says:

      True that wanting to be powerful is not the same as wanting to be a man, but 2 of the girls I’m talking about kinda wanted to be them, and the third one only occasionally. She was different from the other two, because she was naturally “manly” anyway, which gathered a lot of disapproval. Being a man would mean this nonsense would stop.
      The other two associated power with men, which lead to literally wanting to be a man. I think it’s possible to be strong and independent without being manly or wanting to be a man, which is why I’m puzzled by women who want to stop being women. It could be simply a mistake, like you said (confusing wanting power and wanting to be of the opposite sex). I can see a difference between a woman happy with her accomplishments and work, and a woman who feels limited by her femaleness and almost hates herself for it. The latter is not supposed to happen, but it does.

      Thanks for those new names. I’m a bit suspicious of Mead, since my book on gender studies said she’s been “harmonizing” the facts, so everything fits with everything else, but I’ve been meaning to look into Wollstonecraft’s writings.

    • Zach the drunk says:

      “Wanting to be strong, intimidating and smart does not equal wanting to be a man. ”
      Unfortunately for me it does 😛

      I think some women are raised to think that they will forever be nothing but weaklings because of their gender due to bully parents or even some cultural ideas (this seems very apparent in some Arabic, Chinese, and Mexican cultures) like you said. Many cultures actually value males over females, especially the Chinese and Japanese cultures.

      I also believe a lot of it has to do with confidence.
      “My impression is that when women are able to achieve power through their work, they’re happy. They don’t see themselves as trying to be men, or their ambition and smarts as masculine traits. They just see themselves as women who are doing important work and being recognized for it.”
      I do believe those were confident women. They are also more mentally healthy. From my experiences, I am not confident in part due to males teaching me I am weak and stupid because I am a female. This took away my confidence and now that I am away from that unhealthy environment I still find myself wishing I was a male because I watch males possess the qualities I so desperately wanted as a kid.

      I do however like your point about how it’s more associated with wanting power. I actually do agree with:
      “Being strong and intimidating can make the difference in whether or not you are killed, raped or stolen from. Being smart and good at technical stuff means you can make money, which is how you get a secure home, freedom to travel and various fun consumer goods.”
      I do try to view it more as just wanting power rather than wanting a dick. I hear those hurt 😉

      • Emma the Emo says:

        That’s what I mean – both feminist groups and traditional people (not all of them, but some) devalue women and their more common traits. The latter tells you you’re nothing but a weakling who is only good for popping out babies, the former tells you that to be more than a weakling, you must work and earn a lot of cash. What’s wrong with just saying that taking care of your family and raising kids is a great and valuable skill needed in society, but you can also have others if you choose that and have a talent for it?
        Lately some MRAs joined in, inspired by “The Manipulated Man” written by E. Vilar. “Women manipulate men into hard work, by giving him access to her vagina from time to time, and for popping out kids and doing useless easy work around the house”. Nice.

    • Disrespect says:

      Yuck. Your politically correct insanity disgust me. Men and women have innate differences due to the effects of testestrone and estrogen on the mind and body of human beings. The fact that some groups succeed more than others and dominated does not mean there was oppression. Nothing is more subversive than truth and truth will destroy feminism and it followers.

  2. jack says:

    In “The eighth day of Creation” (published in 1978), Swiss author Jérôme Deshusses wrote: “All culture, all sciences, all arts, all philosophies, all religions are masculine creations. The more one tries to include women within these settings (which, fortunately, they do not recognize as their own), the more they are justified in saying that they are being allotted a secondary role”. Also: “The arts, science, technology, law, and philosophy – the whole of civilization – are an absolute male monopoly. To rebel against this fact is absurd; to understand it would be intelligent”. I think we have here a reason why some women may envy men. Note this does not prevent massively more men to undergo a sex-change than the reverse, probably because men who envy women do so for more compelling reasons still.

    • Emma the Emo says:

      I don’t think the majority of sex changes are due to envy… I think it’s just transexuals. But what you say sounds possibly correct – everything was mostly made by men.
      Solution for a woman who envies would be to realize that her group (women) doesn’t have to compete with the other group (men) for HER to feel good. Despite the fact that everything was built and invented by men, most of her male peers didn’t (especially applies to those who are still young), so nothing to feel jealous about. Rather she should realize that both men and women might feel jealous of the best of us all (which tend to be men, I heard it’s cuz there are more geniuses and well as idiots among men than women…). No reason to feel jealous on behalf of all women as a group.

      • jack says:

        Yeah. Regarding transexuals/transvestites, what they “envy” (want to attain) is the status of sex-object. Men can’t usually be sex-objects, women can. Being a sex-object (and earning a living as one) seems easy compared to having to compete for social status with hundreds of millions of other males. The “envy” connection was brought to my attention In Brazil, where transexualism is rampant. There was some sort of consensus among female sex workers there that the transexuals feel “inveja” towards biological women because they’re women and can make things happen in their lives just by applying make-up and putting on sexy clothes. Of course technically becoming a woman maybe easy, becoming an attractive woman is not.

  3. yiuon says:

    That’s what I mean – both feminist groups and traditional people (not all of them, but some) devalue women and their more common traits.

    You have it backwards. Traditional conservatives don’t hate women nor do they devalue the woman’s role, contrary to feminist claims. Every single book that I read, every single one, where femininity was devalued was done by feminists. The patriarchy typically believes that there are differences between the sexes and that men should play a dominant role whereas women should play a subsmissive role. That differences are innate. I mean seriously, who praises motherhood and children for women? All of those childless (and increasingly infertile due to contraception) college-educated women? Nope. It is the feminists who have a problem. They screech about “misogyny!!” but it the feminists who are inhuman. They suffer from serious penis envy and want to invert reality. It’s a huge error to claim that patriarchs despise femininity. What they despise is a disordered world where men are women and women are men and everybody is mentally ill. As long as things are in order then things are alright. If religious patriarchs like Muslims and Catholics loved masculinity in women they would be lining up to meet them but instead they avoid them like the plague. They don’t like them at all and reject them. They’re sick and tired of the “strong, independent woman” cries.

    Of course technically becoming a woman maybe easy, becoming an attractive woman is not.

    They will never be women. They will always be mutilated men. Transgenderism, perhaps the most disturbing form of genital mutilation, is an abomination and inhuman.

    • emmatheemo says:

      Look, I have evidence that some patriarchial people devalue femininity. Not saying all, but some do, and they end up with daughters who will NEVER have children, because they were taught it’s all they are good for and the best they can hope for is giving birth to the next pope or whatever. Nice going, traditional dads!

      Feminism is wrong too, but in some cases it’s a reaction against already existing disrespect (“Making kids is the best I can hope for and I’m useless otherwise?.. I will prove you wrong! I can be respected too!”). Sometimes it’s really just penis envy for no reason.

      “Transgenderism, perhaps the most disturbing form of genital mutilation, is an abomination and inhuman.”
      I’m sorry you feel that way, but it’s far from objective truth.

  4. Susie says:

    So you think transgenderism is normal but patriarchs are crazy? And you defend feminism as a reaction? According to your previous comments (not just in this post but in other posts) sexual orientation is unchangeable and genetic but gender is changeable. Now that’s insane.

    • Emma the Emo says:

      Wait, what? I’m not exactly defending feminism as a reaction to patriarchy in general. I just know of cases where some girls had really patriarchial dads, told their daughters they’ll never amount to anything except giving birth to next pope. Said they had no value except as baby-making machines. This is to be avoided. If you want to be a patriarchial guy and raise your daughter right, don’t tell her stuff like that, if you still want grandkids.

      According to everything I saw, orientation is mostly unchangable and so is gender. Probably not all genetic, but also dependent on hormones you received while developing before your birth. But that’s all I know for now. I didn’t say gender was changeable…

  5. Mike says:

    “Wanting to be strong, intimidating and smart does not equal wanting to be a man.”

    Absolutely correct. Men do not seek strength,knowledge, or the ability to command the respect of others, what women incorrectly identify as “intimidation”,for any of the petty imagined reasons you mention. Men seek strength to counter the fact that they are 150% more likely to be the victims of any form of violent crime than women in their lives .We seek knowledge to overcome obstacles the members of our society face,in other words to give convenience as a gift to the people that we share a common bond with, not to look “sassy” and intellectually bully others as you do. Our charisma we develop in order to control harmful and lawless elements that victimize those who cannot defend themselves,people such as everyone here that has a vagina.Every time I hear a feminist mention the word “power” I throw up in my mouth a little bit. A woman’s understanding of power is very limited, she sees the effects but is as cognizant of the underlying cause and origins of the socio-political dance as a dog is of where all his doggy biscuits come from. All he knows is that when he rolls over, you scratch his belly and he gets something yummy.Unfortunately, as with anything else, if used contrary to indications,even something as innocent as table salt can become a deadly poison. Power,doubly so. Power is nothing more than a tool, to be used for good or ill. The goodies that you witness come from using power wisely, for the benefit of all, something a feminist scumbag will like the writer will never grasp. When a feminist mentions her quest for “power” she is referring invariably to the sociopathic urge to inflict one’s will upon others for the purposes of short-term benefit to oneself,something which carries a penalty of death by lynch mob sooner or later in every scenario in which a man attempts to pull this off. See the never-ending changeover of regimes in Africa for copious examples.I have never seen a woman who acquires the job of Supreme Court Justice, Congressperson,or Senator do anything other than turn around and lavish goodies on the female sex,ultimately narcissistically feathering her own nest at a cost to the American taxpayer, which is overwhelmingly male.

    ” It equals wanting power, which is a good thing to have regardless of what gender you are.”

    I doubt Hitler’s victims,or Pol Pot’s,or Stalin’s would agree it is always so good for just anyone to have power.Power must be delegated to those with the responsibility and wisdom to use it for the benefit of all. When sociopathic individuals,whose only motive is self-aggrandizement,succeed in accruing power to themselves,usually millions of people die. A feminist would argue it is their masculinity to blame. As indeed our feminist here has. Remember what I said earlier. Her understanding of “power” is based on shallow and uninformed observation,similar to the way one might see sex as a power struggle between the two genders, were one to witness it from the viewpoint of an asexual alien being.However, masculinity has always placed limits on the unproductive use of power, usually by killing the offending megalomaniac,as we (essentially) did with Hitler,et al.

    “Being strong and intimidating can make the difference in whether or not you are killed, raped or stolen from.”

    Not for a woman. No rapist is going to be intimated by someone who is 80% body fat to his 80% muscle, no matter how many “Take Back the Night” rallies you organize. Not only that, men are 80% or more of the victims of violence.Women enjoy free protection and consideration,courtesy of men’s biological desire to protect the more vulnerable sex and young offspring.Whether or not she knows Jeet Kune Do or is a weightlifting champion or any other factor, she will still be granted this protection. It is instinctual. We can see it offered even to the most vile specimens of the fairer sex. Out of all those executed for murder, women make up 1% of the total. A male murderer is 1000 times more likely to get the chair than a female murderer.

    “Being smart and good at technical stuff means you can make money, which is how you get a secure home, freedom to travel and various fun consumer goods.”

    Another common female misunderstanding. You don’t get a secure home with money. You get a secure home by building one with defensive characteristics and then vigilantly protecting that area. Women fall into the Dog Biscuit Trap on so many issues it astounds me. Money is nothing more than paper. It creates nothing, accomplishes nothing, and doesn’t even mean anything after its divorce from real assets such as silver and gold. Dollar bills may as well be monopoly money. Security and goods stream from an ability to produce,not from “power”,or “money”,or any other ill-defined artificial concept. All things of a material nature flow from a body of knowledge able to generate practical returns,a system of practical application. In chasing “power”, you might as well be advocating cultivating “The Force”, or “animal magnetism”,or the “power of positive thinking”. It’s a concept that you made up in your head. It doesn’t exist in reality, as can be seen by the nebulous,shifting definition and endless hyperbolistic rhetorical crutches you need to shore up such an idea,such as “the patriarchy”,”rape culture”,and so on.

    “My impression is that when women are able to achieve power through their work, they’re happy.”

    According to recent polls, women are less happy now than they were before feminism and men are even happier thanks to all that low-cost,no obligations pussy you feminists are putting out there. I’d like to personally extend my thanks. I’ve no doubt that thanks to you feminists,I’ve nailed more clueless,braindead,loose,skanky sluts who thought they were empowering themselves by guzzling buckets of my jizz than I would have been able to otherwise.Thanks for the good times,but even I know you sold them a lie.

    I’m not even going to address the rest of the idiotic,armchair sociologist generalizations you made,”po’d woman”, as it’s all bullshit. You’ll never discover the roots or mechanisms of your “patriarchy”,you’ll never find your “power”, and you’ll never prove gender roles are malleable and “programmed by society” because you are chasing rainbows. You are chasing rainbows because you think that feeling something is right is just as good as testing every conceivable variable and slowly building up a model based ONLY on what is objectively verifiable.

    Cheers,femmie. Looking forward to the next 100 years of your unprovoked Gender War you’ve foisted upon us in a misguided attempt to acquire what is essentially our male souls by taking our status,money,and education from us. You’ll never get what you’re after,you will kill yourselves and the entire human species trying, and WE will ultimately have the last laugh,not to mention quite a few laughs in the middle. You’ll piss icecubes in hell before you can stand where the most virtuous and hardy of our sex have stood without an army of men to prop your dainty psychotic little ass up so you can play your little pretend game.

    • Emma the Emo says:

      ““Being strong and intimidating can make the difference in whether or not you are killed, raped or stolen from.”

      Not for a woman. ”

      Actually, that makes sense, although no normal woman is 80% fat (fatness for women starts at 30%). Unless she’s naturally 6 feet tall and buff at 200 lbs (and preferably ugly), a woman is not gonna look too intimidating. The opposite might actually work way better – looking innocent and vulnerable. It won’t persuade a rapist not to rape you perhaps, but it may persuade other violent people not to hurt you. Not to mention people who see you get hurt will feel moral indignation about it and might help you more readily. And looking harmless also gives everyone a false sense of security, so it’s not a bad thing.

    • Emma the Emo says:

      … but I think I’ll disagree with you on “monopoly money” – they are valuable in their own system. You can’t deny you can go far with paper money (and many people have), as long as the system you’re in is intact.

  6. Sceptic says:

    Pissedofwoman:

    Studies show stay at home women are by far the most happy, not working women.

  7. onrealshit says:

    Having a masculine personality doesn’t mean that they hate themselves, just that they relate more to men than women. I’m a woman with a “masculine” personality, and that’s just the way I’ve always been, even as a child before having been taught about gender roles (my parents never pushed me to behave like a girl or a boy) and feminism. Most women seem irritated by me, as they are more quiet, emotional, and soft, and it’s pretty clear the second you hear me speak that I’m the complete opposite. As women seem pretty repelled by my personality, I’ve developed an overall annoyance with super feminine women as well. They seem to lack personality or any real “spark” to them. They are dull and mousy. It has nothing to do with hating myself or hating myself for being a woman, but all about embracing my personality and saying fuck gender roles.

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