Shamed yet Celebrated vs Celebrated yet Shamed

Feminists and MRAs often disagree on what the mainstream culture really celebrates, and what it looks down on. I have looked at MRA sites and feminist sites and books. Feminists say that sluts are shamed, and the sexual double standards is still there. Jessica Valenti says in “He’s a Stud, She’s a Slut”:

“Why is a woman less of a person, or (my favorite) “dirty”, because she has sex? (Heterosexual sex, that is; somehow lesbian sex isn’t “real”) Does a penis have some bizarre dirty-making power that I’m unaware of? Every time I have sex, do I lose a little bit of my moral compass? “Sorry to mug you, Granma, but I had sex twice this week!””

MRAs say that female sexuality is actually celebrated. Here, a Genderratic writer Typhonblue says:

“2) Promiscuous women are expressing their sexuality; promiscuous men are ‘using’ their sex partners for selfish kicks

3)  Women should be lauded for their sexual desires; men should be ashamed of theirs because male desire ‘objectifies’ women.”

So which one is it? Is female promiscuity celebrated or shamed? I will say celebrated, yet shamed.

I believe there are two layers of “mainstream” culture. Both layers are a part of overall public opinion. The upper layer celebrates. It is culture that people of certain ideology tried to impose on everyone, with the conviction that if you change the culture, you will change everyone’s mind. This is what MRAs see – female promiscuity is no longer a big deal, men don’t refuse to marry non-virgins, and you can discuss your sexual partners on the internet, and it’s no longer outrageous. No one cares, apart from some conservatives, people who don’t have that much power anyway.  It’s shown in shows like “Sex and the City”, which is pretty mainstream.

However, the layer under that still shames female promiscuity. This layer, I believe, is the consequence of our evolutionary history. Female and male promiscuity always meant different things. A man can’t get pregnant. A promiscuous woman could be a worse deal for a man looking to invest long term, as she could be pregnant, or could continue being promiscuous in the future. Also, it is harder to get laid for a man, than it is for a woman. People sense that a woman who sleeps around is not accomplishing anything. This is the “dirty-making power” the penis has, that Jessica is unaware of. However, I would not use the word “dirty”, and don’t think promiscuity has anything to do with being a good or bad person. It simply isn’t a way to gain respect.

Male sexuality, on the other hand, is shamed, yet celebrated. The upper layer of mainstream is ideologically-driven. Feminist thinking permeates politics. Male sexuality is indeed being demonized in the law, the unwarranted escalating sex laws being proof of that. Also, PUAs are not very liked by feminists, some say they are predatory.  However, underneath all that, people know that a high number man has something cool about him. Getting laid so much requires some skills with women. It doesn’t work with genders switched.

Current conclusion: Both feminists and MRAs are right in their own ways. Female promiscuity is celebrated yet shamed, and male promiscuity is shamed yet celebrated.

………………………………………………

However, at a certain point, this easy logic stops working. Male promiscuity is “shamed, yet celebrated”, but male sexuality is, to an extent, feared – in BOTH the upper and lower layers of the mainstream. The feminist mainstream is fuelling that fear, with their escalating sex laws and always keeping rape/harassment/sexual abuse in the foreground. However, it’s also in people’s instincts. Women fear that a man will attack them and have sex with them forcibly. I don’t believe men fear the same from women. People also don’t react too negatively when an attractive female teacher (or any attractive adult woman) has sex with a teenage boy. Yet when a grown man does it with a teenage girl, he’s a pervert and a pedophile. I do not think this is simply a result of feminism and their “1 in 4 women are sexually assaulted” statistics. I think this is due to the fact that men have, and do, most of the unsavory things to get sex. Women can do it too, but they don’t have to, and they don’t do it quite so much. Men, as the sex who can’t get pregnant, evolved to be more sexually desperate (relative term), which means they can resort to lowly predatory methods to get sex. Not all of them of course. Not even most. But don’t tell me all men are perfect gentlemen, and that their genes never had an incentive to propagate themselves through whining for sex, blackmail, coercion or deception.

Current conclusion: male sexuality is feared both on an “innate” level and the current political mainstream level.

……………………………………

Can female sexuality be innately feared? I think it can be either feared or hated, but not the same way as male sexuality. In evolutionary history, cuckoldry would impose the same costs on a man as rape does on a woman. So I’d predict that male sexuality can be feared because it’s potentially rapey. And female sexuality could be feared or hated because it’s potentially cuckolding. I think both could develop into a hysteria, in the right circumstances. I think feminism contributed to creating the male sexuality hysteria. I don’t know exactly what a female sexuality hysteria would look like, but I imagine it would include severe slut-shaming and bashing.

Concluding remark: this post discusses whether male promiscuity/sexuality is shamed or celebrated, and whether female promiscuity/sexuality is shamed or celebrated. Just because I think something is a certain way, doesn’t mean I think it ought to be so. That is a topic for another post.

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26 Responses to Shamed yet Celebrated vs Celebrated yet Shamed

  1. Clarence in Baltimore says:

    Emma:

    I think you are on to something. That’s actually a good way of putting the ‘facts on the ground’ in regards to male and female sexuality. It’s easy to get confused about these things because so often social sexual shame is the only thing that is focused on when in fact how the binary sexes libidos are viewed also has to take into account fear as well. Certainly feminism and some conservative movements have spent well over 30 to 40 years actively demonizing male sexuality and they get away with it in part because of the confusion when people conflate the various sexual shames (e.g ‘slut shaming’ or for males ‘virgin shaming’) with the fears.

    Shame can still cripple some women, esp. in isolated religious communities or in certain things like sororities and fraternities. But women’s inherit sexuality is far more often denied (he “corrupted” her!) than feared. I think this partly goes back to one’s mother and (unless she was a bad abusive or absentee mother) her nurturing role. Women get far more associated with “nurturing” than men do, and so how could the nice preschool lady ever agree to take her top off?

    And of course (well, now that it’s practically illegal except in the rare case the student has turned 18 this doesn’t usually apply anymore) this plays into the teenager/teacher sex scenarios. “Everyone knows” that all teenage males are horny and thinks that means they will f*ck anything that moves(actually, I’m sure most of us have some standards!. I remember I had the ‘hots’ for a 25 or 30 year old ‘blonde bombshell’ language teacher at 13, but I never felt the same way for my fifty plus overweight lady band teacher) – so of course they all have lots of experience, have no sexual naivety, etc. Short of the guy being downright drugged or tied up or beaten, most people will say he ‘got lucky’ and that’s that.

    Teenage girl/older man -well, it’s kind of funny in a sad way. If you look at how teen girls are usually talked about and portrayed (except in comedies) you will see they are all mature, intelligent, and empowered. This is, as close to the ‘official word’ on teen girls that you can get. Teen girls: good, responsible, smart. Teen boys: savage little beasts that unless tightly controlled will grow into monsters. And not very good at school. BUT when the subject is sex: suddenly teen girls maturity and agency goes out the window. Male’s, esp. older ones (and in some cases as little as 2 or 3 years older) are considered predatory people who will trick these empowered smart young women out of their panties as easy as pie. And in the event that she chases the male or tries to seduce him (heaven forbid!) he’ll still be at fault even if he is her age, let alone something like 10 to 20 years older.

    Beyond the issue of say, teacher/student sex in high school (which I don’t believe in but I DO think the punishments often don’t fit the ‘crime’ ) the cognitive dissonance required to believe that teenage girls are much more ‘mature’ than the boys and at the same time totally ‘innocent’ of any sexual desires boggles the mind.

  2. Ashley says:

    Female sexuality is greatly feared because of it’s potential power. It is a fact that women do not value sex as important as men do, yet it is more easily accessible to women. If women were fully aware of their potential power with the aid of their sexuality, this world would be a shit load different than is now…and this is the very threat of our current male dominated society. It scares the shit out of them, so they build women up to suppress their sexuality to keep the upper hand. How long will this last before the majority of women catch on, is the question?

    • Eric says:

      Ashley:
      The problem is that gynocentric, feminist society has blinded men to their own sexual power. Once men wake up to this fact, they will no longer kow-tow to the gender supremacists, but relationships will be on OUR terms.

      It’s women who need men, men don’t need women at all.

      • emmatheemo says:

        I disagree. I don’t think men have any sexual power at all, but they have other types of power. Do you really think any of this is gonna happen?

        “If we all just collectively stop dating and having sex with women, we’ll get sexually powerful and have sex on our terms”

        “If we sluts just collectively close our legs together, alphas will be much easier to get into marriage, and it will be on our terms”

        I have very little hope for both of those – if you have promiscuous people either giving it away for free, or willing to tolerate lots of crap just to get some, you will NOT have any sexual power.

        The problem with feminist society is all kinds of financial and legal extra help for women, not overly promiscuous men. Make the former disappear, and men will be able to date women easier, and will have more of a say on how things go.

  3. Clarence says:

    Ashley:
    Your comment is one of the funniest I have seen in quite some time.
    But then again, this level of analysis is expected of someone who (from your blog) seems to have just discovered the tradsphere and is shocked by how it diverges from mainstream feminist thought. I suppose you just recently discovered Lysistrata.

    In fact, I dare so most females are well aware of their sexual power and they use it to reward men and thus help in building the so-called “patriarchy” you decry. In fact, “patriarchy” only means two things when feminists talk about it

    A. The mythical conspiracy among all men to keep women down
    B. More practically they (whether they know it or not) tend to talk about various aspects of the male dominance hierarchy. And anyone who believes that male dominance hierarchies are solely built by men and/or designed to favor men at the expense of women is quite literally – too stupid for words.

    • Ashley says:

      It’s hard for women not to notice how powerful their sexuality can be when men respond the way they do. That and the fact that sex is the #1 way our society sells anything and everything, so yes, a lot of them are aware.

      But I want to know your thought, if not to keep women down, why exactly is our society’s view of male sexuality vs female sexuality so hypocritical?

      • emmatheemo says:

        It’s hypocritical because people instinctively feel women with high N are sluts and men with high N are skillful and cool in some way. Nobody is really keeping female sexuality down at the moment. It’s the male one that’s being demonized nowadays in the West, through real laws.

      • Ashley says:

        Well, they are trying to push some laws against female sexuality, but not succeeding, at least not yet.

      • Ashley says:

        The attack on Planned Parenthood – anti-abortion, anti-birth control, and the debate in what is considered rape.

      • Eric says:

        Ashley:
        ‘Attacks on Planned Parenthood, anti-abortion, anti-birth control, and the debate in what is considered rape.’

        Every single thing in that list has nothing to do with attacking female sexuality. Every one of them is an attack on male sexuality, which most women seem to want to control at all hazards.

      • Eric says:

        Ashley:
        They presume to monopolize control of sex and reproduction in the hands of women. Men have no say as an equal in abortion, birth control, or—although it wasn’t mentioned—no fault divorce.

        As for rape, it is all about criminalizing male sexuality. Rape is a forcible and violent act, and could be prosecuted under existing laws against assault, battery, &c. But since it women are given exclusive rights to define it, even looking at a woman is ‘visual rape.’

        To most women’s minds, all sex is really rape. And they hate male sexuality for that reason.

  4. Eric says:

    Emma:
    I remember recently this article concerning female sexuality. If you don’t mind, I would like to hear your thoughts about it.

    http://www.kshatriya-anglobitch.blogspot.com/2011/04/out-of-mouths-of-anglofags-interesting.html

    I tend to agree with Fry’s comments.

    • emmatheemo says:

      Ah, I remember reading that, when I still thought women were as slutty as men. I mean, that is what you see on TV and hear from various slutty friends, that women fuck anyone, right?.. But nah, I have since then learned it’s not so, not even when women are given as much sexual freedom as possible.

      However, I won’t say that women only have sex in exchange for a relationship. It’s true that they enjoy casual sex much, much less. This fact is a fact, and it’s neither negative nor positive, it’s how women are. However, what they want, I think, is to have that Mr. Right all to themselves, and have hot sex with him (and make sure he does’t have it with anyone else). It’s just that sometimes
      a)Mr. Right won’t commit
      b)Other guys will commit, but they are not hot enough to be enthusiastic in bed about.

      Those feminists are not wrong when they say “women are as capable of enjoying sex as men”. However, WHEN and WITH WHOM are different for the sexes. For the woman, the criteria are stricter, which they seem to deny completely.

    • emmatheemo says:

      Can’t tell you if women are disgusted by men’s sexuality. I think they can be unhappy with some aspects of it… And if a guy is unattractive, then his expressions of sexuality are “creepy”

      • Eric says:

        Emma:
        As a follow-up question then: since misandry and hatred for male sexuality is so deeply instilled in females today: how do they enjoy sex at all?

        To the other point: I don’t believe that most women really believe in a ‘Mr. Right’ at all. Most women think all men are pigs, regardless of our status. I think one reason why they reject responsible men in favor of bums, thugs, and retards is because they believe that such low-status males are showing the ‘true male nature’ and they can’t imagine a decent man as anything other than a poser and a fraud.

      • emmatheemo says:

        I don’t think it’s deeply instilled in them, like you say. A lot of people (men too) go along with lots of anti-man sex laws over here, probably because they don’t know what they are doing. They don’t realize these laws are not there to protect women anymore. Men who support them don’t think they’ll ever be used against them. I suspect there is some deference to authority going on – people follow the authority figures, without thinking about it too much.

        Maybe both genders look at the issue as “it’s us, normal people, against those rapey rapists”. Because I really don’t see the average woman HERE act like you describe, and they don’t have trouble having sex with men.

        As for USA, I heard it’s different over there. I suspect the environment is different, and women pick something else than women here in Norway. Women can pick symmetric looks, resources, and status that influences other men. Here, they perhaps pick the first two, in USA the third one. Just speculating. However, the idea that women pick men just to feel superior over them seems like something Freud would write, it seems unintuitive, not scientific and I see no evidence for it so far. Why would women subject themselves to nasty men so often, if there wasn’t something great in it for them? Like sexual grafitication and pleasure derived from the “passion” in the relationship? No offence, but you sound like the MacKinnon of the MRM, who says men have sex not for sexual pleasure, but to dominate and oppress women. Cuz patriarchy taught them,
        Our natures are flexible, but I doubt they are THAT flexible, overriding sexual selection completely.

      • Eric says:

        Emma:
        “Why would women subject themselves to nasty men so often if there wasn’t something great in it for them?”

        If they believe that they are superior to all men, that something great could be ego-stimulation.

        “Our natures are flexible, but I doubt that they are that flexible, overriding sexual selection completely.”

        Then how would you account for the high divorce rate, the high abortion rate, the high percentage of single mothers, the fact that women end relationships at 9x the rate of men, if nature wasn’t being completely overriden by societal demands?

      • emmatheemo says:

        High divorce rate: divorce has nothing to do with reproduction. If a woman can secure resources without staying with the guy, and doesn’t want to stay anymore, she won’t stay anymore. But I don’t see how it negatively affects her reproductive success.

        High abortion rate: I would guess evolutionary adaptions meeting novel situations. In the past, you’d have to have at least some of those babies that you’d otherwise abort. And probably have less unwanted babies to abort in the first place, considering there was no pill, or cheap condoms, to give everyone a sense of security.

        High percentage of single moms: again, it doesn’t damage her reproductive success too much.

      • Eric says:

        Emma:
        Those things probably don’t directly override reproductive success; but my point was that they are examples of social conditioning overriding even the feminine maternal instinct. And since female sexuality and reproductive success are so closely linked, wouldn’t it be logical that if reproductive drives could be socially overriden, then sexual drives can be as well?

      • emmatheemo says:

        But I don’t think their desire to be moms is overridden… Have you seen this? http://freenortherner.wordpress.com/2013/03/08/feminist-self-annihilation/
        It’s not about babies, but it’s close. Women are actually ASHAMED of wanting a long term relationship now, but it doesn’t stop them from wanting it, and trying to get it once they are 30. You can socially shame people into hating their drives and behaving in odd ways, but so far, I don’t know of any social tradition that can dramatically change most people’s drives.

      • Eric says:

        Emma:
        The women described in the FreeNortherner article are specimens of the quality of American women generally. So are the females who comment at Manboobz.

        Is it any wonder why men give up and go MGTOW?

      • emmatheemo says:

        If that’s how they are, I wouldn’t date them. But you will see many commenters are happy that these women are ashamed of wanting a relationship in their early 20s, which makes sex with them relatively hassle-free.

  5. Ashley:
    There are plenty of hypocritical memes about both sexes sexuality.
    Men’s sexuality is often considered ‘dirty’ for instance. The virgin who experiences rape is often said to be ‘despoiled’, and sometimes they just apply that ‘despoiled’ term to a woman’s first sex whether she wanted it or not. So she loses ‘value’ to some men as she loses her ‘virgin’ status and her first sexual partner, if known, can be demonized too, esp if he didn’t marry her. Then there’s the opposite that goes on for guys that aren’t sexually successful. Male “virgin shaming” is almost the same as female “slut” shaming. I should know. Up until the age of 26 my entire sex life consisted of one episode of oral sex, and that’s not widely considered ‘getting to home plate’ if you are a guy. Trust me, from personal experience, you don’t want to be the guy that everyone KNOWS isn’t getting any. Anyway, since it is, for the vast majority of guys a feat to get sex from many different women and its not that hard for younger sexually developed women of average or better attractiveness (and the younger the less attractive they have to be) to get sex from most men pretty much on demand. Indeed, if most of them didn’t go for cocky and/or handsome men whom most other women wanted, women would have alot more sex than they do. And thats why the slut/stud double standard. Based on religion (the virgin and sex inside/versus outside or procreative open versus procreative closed sex) and based on the observed fact that its an unusual man who is popular with most women sexually.
    Alot of religions are all about controlling both male and female sexuality and this is expressed in various forms of shaming. I tend to believe that some of this stuff was for the best in the times before birth control/ STD treatment/abortion when unmarried pregnant women were far more vulnerable and when most men and women lived at the suffrage of various types of absolute rulers or lived alone and relied on clans /family to protect each other.

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