Don’t listen to what men say, look at what they do

The engagement of bitter anti-marriage commenter Mark Minter and sweet commenter Kate reminded me of something I observed for a long time.

The rule of “Don’t listen to what they say, look at what they do” does not apply solely (or even mainly) to women.

The saying “An MRA is one blowjob away from becoming a feminist” is perhaps not true. But what is true, is that an MRA is one blowjob away from becoming a calm, pleasant human being*.

To some people, this realization will be negative, and to some positive. I suspect submissive wife-material women will not like this, as this means men can commit the same disconnectedness between words and action as them. Anti-marriage men will not like this, as it probably weakens their belief in effective marriage-strike. Incorrigible romantics will probably like this, as they think love conquers all, even the harsh red pill reality.

But whether we like it or not, it’s a real effect, which becomes apparent the longer you look.

___________________________________________________________________________

*This is not a shaming tactic. Bitterness is one of MRAs’ specialties. There is nothing offensive about saying so (it is the truth), and nothing shameful about being so (it is for a reason).

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32 Responses to Don’t listen to what men say, look at what they do

  1. Amy says:

    I might be a little of an incorrigible romantic…
    I don’t think of it as a disconnection as much as an evolution. When people are upset they tend to think in extremes. A man recovering from an ugly divorce may say– and truly believe– he’ll never get married again and that marriage is always a bad deal for men. As time goes on he realizes it’s not quite so absolute. Now that his eyes have been opened to the true nature of women and relationships, he is in a position to choose very wisely. And he finds a woman who is actually worth the commitment.

    • emmatheemo says:

      I don’t see it as a hypocricy or as something morally wrong. However, changing one’s mind after “protesting too much” is still a case of saying one thing and then doing another 🙂

  2. Eric says:

    Amy:
    “And he finds a woman worthy of the commitment.”

    Therein lies the problem. Except for a few PUA/Gametard fanatics, most MRAs really don’t oppose marriage per se; they oppose the phoniness and superficialities of modern women that lead to broken marriages and divorces. Keoni Galt, Empath, and Elusive Wapiti, for example, are married MRAs with a families and Eivind and Emma have a good LTR. Nobody resents them for that, it were more universal men would have less to complain about.

    Kate, Emma and the wives of the MRAs mentioned above all show women what is possible when they throw off their selfishness and sense of entitlement and actually DO something to EARN a relationship. Kate got a valuable man because she saw his value.

    • Amy says:

      But it seems like a lot of them do resent it. Kate was pummeled in more than a few MRA forums (low value, single mom, too old, phony, etc) even though it appeared she’d been posting in those forums a while and was generally well liked and respected. I think there’s a contingent of men who absolutely refuse to believe women are capable of the selflessness and sacrifice necessary for a LTR. They mock and tear down anyone who tries to show otherwise.
      I understand the problems with modern marriage and I agree there are huge disincentives for men to get married and have children in today’s world. But Kate expressed that she wished to set a good example for her daughter. What is that example? That a good woman can win commitment from a good man. That marriage is important, and that it takes work and sacrifice. Now what message would her daughter get if they just shacked up together? That marriage doesn’t matter. That women can do it alone… they don’t need a man. That single motherhood is no problem. These are exactly the values MRAs rail against…. yet they mock this couple for rejecting exactly those values.

      • Eric says:

        Amy:
        Not all MRAs do. However, just as clods like Futrelle preach NAWALT and then attack women who actually practice it, a few PUA losers like RooshV rail against feminist values then attack women who reject them. Here’s the dynamic behind this kind of thinking:

        Feminism is largely about leveling sexual values and reducing male sexual choices to the lowest common denominator. This obviously raises the sexual market value of less desirable females, but it conversely raises the sexual market value of less desirable males: those commonly archetyped as Omegas and Zetas actually BENEFIT from feminist sexual leveling. Notice how so many women typically choose mates from the lowest orders of thugs and misfits while genuine Alpha and Beta archetypes typically end up sexless and single.

        If 90% of the women men encountered were like Kate or Emma and actually valued men, the higher-status males would pair off with the higher-status females and there would really be no need for an MRM at all. But those men left holding the bag would be Omegas like Roosh and Zetas like Futrelle—and so it’s not in the interests of either to see feminism fall and successful marriages happening.

  3. Eric says:

    Emma:
    Not everybody is happy with the news. Did you see this:

    http://www.manboobz.com/2013/07/29/is-mark-minter-misogynistic-marriage-mocker-really-getting-married/

    Fat-troll is showing his true colors again as an arch-hypocrite by throwing as much cold water on the story as possible. Some defender of women: he’s all for choice when women make the choices he approves of.

    This douchebag actually had the spleen to post commentary from Minter’s disgruntled ex-wife too.

  4. M3 says:

    Here’s my problem with Minty.

    It’s not that he found a woman.
    It’s not that he shacked up.
    It’s not that he’s found love.
    It’s not that he found a good redpill woman.

    It’s that after months/years of me reading him make very eloquent points about what a disaster marriage 2.0 in the legal context is for men today, a veritable gun to the head if things go wrong.. he willingly signed up for it.

    It does smack one in the face.

    Nobody says as MGTOW he should deny himself female companionship and stake out a life of betterment alone. But the hypocrisy stems from him advocating against marriage for all the sane reasons he made, and then walking right into it, as if he never made those points. Mark Minter of 6 months ago would be calling Mark Minter today a fucking idiot.

    The low light in all this is (if i read him correctly as an MGTOW).. he should have been able to secure the commitment of Kate without having to enter into the legal trap. If she was the redpill woman he says/she thinks she is.. she should have been the first to say NO to marriage and just cohabit. He should not have had to say a thing, as his wishes were known across the sphere and back again. She should never have asked him to marry, he should never have proposed.

    If he was a man of the conviction he wrote, he should have told her “You can be with me, and we can even do a paperless ceremony in front of everyone. But im not signing that document.”

    And she should have understood, being the caring, understanding, redpill lady she was.

    Whole thing doesn’t add up, especially with it being fodder for that fat Jabba of a Futrelle.

    • emmatheemo says:

      I don’t know his comments too well, but I have to ask: did he ever promise to never marry? If he didn’t, then all it is is a change of heart, rather than hypocrisy (reminds me of “500 of Summer”. Now we all feel like Joseph Gordon-Levitt character, who was himself to blame for that).

      Second, someone else (Professor Ashur I think) said something like “the principles he was talking about remain, no matter what action this individual takes”. I agree. It’s the typical “Do as I say, not as I do”. It doesn’t look graceful or alpha, but I don’t see anything morally wrong.

      As for Kate, as far as I know she didn’t divorce-rape the last guy, which probably played a part in the decision.

      “And she should have understood, being the caring, understanding, redpill lady she was.”

      That one is harder to justify morally, but I think principles of red pill itself inevitably produce such a result. I think if a man is unwilling to offer marriage, he probably doesn’t love you enough (yes, it’s like saying “if she doesn’t put out on date 3, she is not that into you). And if she is unwilling to forfeit marriage, she probably doesn’t love you enough (but instead likes status, or herself (EDIT: or her child)). However, if the man leads the relationship and proposes marriage with confidence, she is not likely to babysit him and say “No, your feelings are clouding your judgement, I’m gonna protect you from yourself”. She can be an understanding red pill lady if he understandably doesn’t want to get married, but supervising his decisions will be un-red pill.

      I’m gonna go even further and assert than for a real red pill woman, merely cohabiting is like a man having a slut for a wife. Really hard to deal with, and there’s better be something making up for it. Here’s how:
      1)It makes you look low status compared to your peers, who are married/have non-sluts for wives. Blue pillers don’t care about it so much, but red pill for women does emphasize commitment, and shames those who fail to secure it. Peer pressure affects both men and women pretty strongly.
      2)It makes you suspicious of the quality of their love.

      Thus, I think Kate’s yes might as well have been consistent with red pill.

      • tyciol says:

        >principles of red pill itself inevitably produce such a result. I think if a man is unwilling to offer marriage, he probably doesn’t love you enough

        That’s a load of shit. ‘Enough’ is a subjective judgment anyway. What is being a fucking doormat beggar ‘love’? That speaks of desperation, not care.

        Love would be taking care of someone even though you’re not legally obligated to.

        > for a real red pill woman, merely cohabiting is like a man having a slut for a wife

        So there are different values at work? Having a faithful boyfriend is like having a cheating spouse? Women determine each other’s value by whether or not they can tie a man’s assets to them, rather than whether they win his heart?

        >It makes you look low status compared to your peers, who are married/have non-sluts for wives

        Only if you socialize with and share the values of a peer circle who determines their status by the behaviour of their partners and not of their own merits.

        >red pill for women does emphasize commitment, and shames those who fail to secure it

        This isn’t red pill this is just fucking default women. Red pill would be determining your own damn worth and not basing it on whether or not you can pressure a man into making promises to you. Red pill is not being a tool led by their friends’ shame, and by having enough esteem to not require shaming others to feel better.

      • emmatheemo says:

        “Love would be taking care of someone even though you’re not legally obligated to.”

        If you don’t trust someone enough to marry them, you might not have enough love. People in love marry because it seems like a good idea at the moment. If their feelings never arrive to such a point, they are too cold. A good analogy is late virgins. A late (late 20s) female virgin is a red flag, because it might mean she is not into sex. Total no to marriage is a red flag too, as it might mean he is not into the girl or love in general. But don’t forget the opposite side of this.

        “So there are different values at work? Having a faithful boyfriend is like having a cheating spouse? Women determine each other’s value by whether or not they can tie a man’s assets to them, rather than whether they win his heart?”

        It’s not about the assets, it’s about the bigger commitment he shows by marrying or being willing to do it. He could be dirt poor. It is, indeed, about his heart in this context.
        What about men? We’re pretty kind to men who don’t want to commit to a former slut, but we should shame women who don’t want a LTR with a non-committer? “Oh, but he is with you NOW! He doesn’t trust you, but his heart is yours. For NOW.”.

        “Only if you socialize with and share the values of a peer circle who determines their status by the behaviour of their partners and not of their own merits.”

        Right, the status thing isn’t that big of a deal. But all the other realities are.

        “Red pill would be determining your own damn worth and not basing it on whether or not you can pressure a man into making promises to you.”

        A woman can have good self-esteem, but it doesn’t mean she should agree to have a LTR who is unwilling to marry her. Come on, you would not say this to a man, would you? “It doesn’t matter than she’s had 100s of cocks, she loves YOU. Red pill is about determining your own worth and not basing it on whether or not you can get a non-slutty gf”. A man with good self worth would not commit to a woman that makes him feel like the 128th most important thing in her life. Same is true for a woman with high self worth.
        Btw, it’s not about pressuring anyone into anything. You can’t pressure a former slut to become a virgin. You can’t pressure a non-marrying man into wanting to marry you. You just avoid those, that’s all.

    • Liz says:

      She does have a kid, it isn’t just about her.
      If she wants her daughter to have a traditional idea about relationships and commitment, living together without a marriage agreement isn’t the way to do it.

  5. Liz says:

    I look at both what men say and what they do. If what they say conflicts largely with what they do, I’d be pretty skeptical about trusting them. Especially if you’re a mother.

    And then there’s the ridiculous age gap. It’s one thing to marry a person 24 years old when he’s in his forties and you might have a few good years, but she’s practically stepping into a nurse maid position at the point, marrying father time.

    • Liz says:

      Honestly, until last night I had never heard of Mark Minter and just perused some of his previous handiwork. Bwahahahaha! Oh, holy hell. I know the vast majority of things people throw out on the internet should be taken with a cupful of salt, but this is egregious enough to have its own meme.
      Response to someone using obviously fraudulent hyperbole:
      “Dude, you don’t have to go all Mark Minter in us.”
      “Don’t be such a Mark Minter.”
      “That’s just a bunch of Mark Minter.”

      • emmatheemo says:

        Lol 🙂 I think Shakespeare was the first to describe it with “The lady doth protest too much” meme (although of course it can be a gentleman)

    • Emma the Emo says:

      “If what they say conflicts largely with what they do, I’d be pretty skeptical about trusting them.”

      Hmm. I think it depends on what we mean… If this happens too much, I wouldn’t trust them much. But people often don’t know themselves 100%. They change their minds. They end up finding new information (about themselves or the world) and rethink their decisions.
      Other people just say a bunch of hair-raising stuff when they are angry. I have seen so many people, who are otherwise loyal and trustworthy, who have done this. I simply learn their quirks and know that when they say X, they really mean Y.

    • Eric says:

      Liz:
      ‘Ridiculous age gap’, —your anti-male bias and feminine jealousy is really showing with these kinds of comments.

      Maybe she should marry the skateboarding ass-hat dealing drugs outside in the parking lot because he’s ‘age appropriate’? LOL My great-grandfather was having kids well into his 50s and 60s. Nobody had to play nursemaid to him either, he became an Army Ranger during the war when he was in his over-the-hill 40s.

      I’m 42 and wouldn’t have the slightest problem having a wife/girlfriend half my age or greater. I’m sure that makes you Cougars angry, but yes—men are quite capable sexually after they turn 30 and just because the Sisterhood labels such men as ‘middle-aged losers’ and ‘dirty old men’ doesn’t change biology.

      • emmatheemo says:

        I have nothing against age gaps, but even I see the rationality behind picking a man who is not too much older than her. Men on average live somewhat shorter lives. A woman who doesn’t wish to be a widow for the last 20+ years of her life should not go for too much older men, and if he’s older, at least see that he’s a healthy man. It’s harsh to lose a man too quickly after you find him (and even 20 years together is kind of short).

        I agree though, that a man in his 60s and beyond doesn’t have to need a nursemaid. My impression is that taking good care of yourself will give you if not longer life, then a shorter “degeneration period” (the period where you’re ill with various age-related diseases before you die).

      • Eric says:

        Emma:
        I also tend to believe that younger women actually contribute to the health of an older man. A man with a younger wife has an incentive to stay young himself; not to mention that he’s liable to stay sexually active much longer—and recent studies have even shown that high testosterone levels help ward off much of those degenerative diseases that you mention.

      • Liz says:

        Eric: “‘Ridiculous age gap’, —your anti-male bias and feminine jealousy is really showing with these kinds of comments.”

        LOL! THis man is almost 60. He’s practically eligible for medicare. Reverse the sexes. If a 58 year old woman was marrying a 34 year old man it would be EVEN more ridiculous. But he IS father time. I speak from experience, my dad was 20 years older than my mom. They had a few good years before he had a stroke (she was 25, he 45 when they married). The last six years of her life she was a nurse-maid, but as I said, there were good years behind them to build a relationship. This guy is decomposing right now.

        Your anti-female bias is showing in your assertion of female bias. And this response was quite predictable.

      • Liz says:

        @ Eric (again): “I’m 42…”

        Good for you. Hope you aren’t hittin’ up girls at the highschool.

      • Liz says:

        @ Emma: “I agree though, that a man in his 60s and beyond doesn’t have to need a nursemaid. My impression is that taking good care of yourself will give you if not longer life, then a shorter “degeneration period” (the period where you’re ill with various age-related diseases before you die).”

        My father was 50 when I was born. Although his age never bothered me, it bothered HIM a lot always being mistaken for a grandfather. He was also in amazing condition for his age…he biked 20-30 miles daily on average. Eventually, it catches up to you anyway. Especially after a stroke, or broken bone, any number of things. The downward slide can be steep and LONG. I’m nurse, too, so I’ve seen many situations in addition to my own. Can a wife who is in her early thirties keep a man pushing 60 young for longer? Of course, but he will make her old before her time. And again, I speak from experience.

      • Eric says:

        Liz:
        Whatever issues you have with your father shouldn’t dictate anybody else’s choices, and certainly not social policy. And how do you know that Minter is ‘decomposing’? I know men older than him who are in better condition than a lot of obese 20 somethings now.

        “I hope that you aren’t hitting up girls at the highschool.”

        Ummm…why should it matter to you if I was? Other than the fact that younger women are competitors for all of you at the ‘Cougar’ ages…

      • Liz says:

        I see. You first site your grandfather as an example (did you even meet this man if he fathered your parent in his 50s/60s? or is is just the legend that lives on? nevermind…) but after I respond with my father as an example I have “father issues”. Of course.

        “Cougar, jealous cougar, father issues, et al…” string of yawn-worthy pejorative cliched bromides. Got it.

      • Eric says:

        Liz:
        No, I know of this from family records.

        A better idea for you would be to contrast your attitude towards your father (and men generally) with your mother’s. Instead of writing him off as a ‘creepy older dude’ as modern would do, she saw value in him and married him. And when he fell sick, instead of throwing in the street without pity or mercy like a modern woman would do, she took care of him.

        See—it has to do with concepts like the ability to give and receive love; empathy and caring—all foreign concepts to the modern female.

  6. ScareCrow says:

    The saying “An MRA is one blowjob away from becoming a feminist” is perhaps not true. But what is true, is that an MRA is one blowjob away from becoming a calm, pleasant human being*.

    I do not think it matters how many blow jobs somebody like Paul Elam gives to people – he will always be a feminist. 🙂

    Honestly, what is in a label??

    I do not consider myself an MRA, so I will not be giving anybody blowjobs at anytime in the future.

    I’ll receive them, but that’s all.

    I gotta draw the line somewhere.

  7. Or we could say: “No matter what or how you believe it happened, Men & Women are built for each other and we will pull each towards the other like gravity.” 😉

  8. Pingback: Wedding Poker: How Women Start the Marriage Strike and Men Complete It | Just Four Guys

  9. tyciol says:

    >what is true, is that an MRA is one blowjob away from becoming a calm, pleasant human being

    >This is not a shaming tactic. Bitterness is one of MRAs’ specialties. There is nothing offensive about saying so (it is the truth), and nothing shameful about being so (it is for a reason).

    One can receive a blowjob in one’s lifetime and still hold bitterness. One can also be calm and pleasant without receiving a blow job.

    You seem to imply that MRAs can’t ever be calm or pleasant and that’s simply false. You also imply they are always bitter.

    While bitterness creeps in, while calmness and pleasantness can be hard to do, it is something MRAs can do on their own.

    Blow jobs can certainly help, but they aren’t ultimately necessary. But hey, every bit counts.

    I see it as only a temporary solution though. Much like masturbation..

  10. Eliezer Ben-Yehuda says:

    >> LOL! THis man is almost 60. He’s practically eligible for medicare

    correct. But that’s the best she can do. She is ==highly== damaged goods.

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