So Is Female Confidence Hot or Not?

I recently read Matt Forney’s ”The Case Against Female Self-Esteem” (http://mattforney.com/2013/09/16/the-case-against-female-self-esteem/ ). In short, he says female vulnerability is sexy and female confidence is not:

“Whenever a girl I’m talking to brags about how she’s “confident” and “strong,” I can feel my dick deflating like a punctured tire. I’d still bang her, of course; a repellent personality doesn’t negate the fact that she has a slammin’ body. But a crucial part of the attraction is lost. “

“I was thinking about a couple of my past relationships when I had this epiphany; the girls I’ve loved the most were the ones who were the most insecure, the most emotionally vulnerable. When I first went on a date with the only girl I would have ever married, her hands were trembling in nervousness. She later admitted that she was openly intimidated by me and the idea that I found her attractive.”

“If a girl needs me, feels that her life would end if she were to lose me, I’m doubly inspired to be there for her, to shield her from the cruelty of the world. Frankly, it’s pretty hot. If she just wants me, could take me or leave me, my gut response is one of apathy. “Yeah, whatever babe.”

Confidence doesn’t give men erections; vulnerability does.”

Since I feel something similar about men, I can kind of understand where he’s coming from. He’s turned off by “stong, independent” women and I’m turned off by men who put their mission ahead of me. “Yeah, whatever babe” is the perfect response. Although I would instead say “Good for you”, because men who pedestalize their mission have lots of hot groupies, so they don’t need me.

Here is someone who disagrees with Matt Forney’s analysis: http://moemurray.wordpress.com/2013/09/17/forney-on-female-self-esteem/

Moemurray says:

When a girl tells Matt that she’s confident, what she’s revealing is that she is in fact insecure. So if Matt likes insecure girls, why doesn’t he like it when a girl tells him she’s confident?”

“1. Matt in fact likes confident girls not insecure girls, but he doesn’t realize this.

2. The fact that an insecure girl would go around saying she is confident is a sign of other problems, particularly poor social skills.

It’s a bit of both, but what’s really going is that Matt likes hot girls. And hot girls have learned that their beauty is power. They are thus (watch the hands, Matt) confident in their ability to use their beauty to their advantage. They are confident in the truest sense: repeated success has led them to trust their beauty to get them what they want.”

He has a point, but I don’t think he’s entirely right. First, he’s likely correct that Matt likes hot girls. An ugly girl is not gonna turn him on, no matter how vulnerable she is. However, a hot girl will either turn less hot or more hot in his eyes, depending on her vulnerability.

Second, he is also correct that SOME women who say they are confident, are likely super-insecure. If you were confident, you wouldn’t talk about it, would you? Moemurray is right that hot girls get to experience power that’s difficult to avoid noticing. But he forgets that the vulnerable girl in Matt’s example is a former fat girl. That girl still doesn’t know her power, and that is a part of her charm.

Third, I think vulnerability and insecurity are different things. I will agree that the former fat girl is still more confident than the insecure girl who insists she is confident. Yet the former fat girl is still the more vulnerable of the two. The former fat girl is far from confident, but she either hasn’t been hurt too much by people destroying her trust, or she is just that trusting to you (both very adorable qualities btw). Yet her trust and openness leave her more open to attack by bad, lying people. Doesn’t that just inspire protective feelings and the desire to not be a bad, lying person?

The insecure girl who insists she’s confident has been hurt, and doesn’t trust anyone anymore. She doesn’t dare open up because it’s a major sore point. She has a wall around her and will strike out at anyone trying anything, or hinting at it. Let me illustrate the difference between the girls in cat videos (just cuz I want to):

Moemurray makes another good point about hot women:

“They get all the same propaganda about being strong independent women as the average and unattractive women, but it’s too easy for them to succeed as soft, co-dependent women. For an average girl, it’s not so easy. Thus such girls don’t have the confidence (there’s that word again) to buck the system. If a man isn’t born with the strength and drive to carve out his own path in the world, he’ll do more or less what the people in charge suggest. The same goes for women.”

I agree the majority of women who fall for feminist ideals are just not independent/confident enough or smart enough to resist it on their own (and that goes for men too). It would be wrong to say you like insecure trusting girls, when most of these are trying to be the feminist ideal of “strong and confident”. However, ability to resist feminist propaganda does not have to imply hotness or confidence. First, confidence in sexual attractiveness doesn’t necessarily translate into ability to resists social pressures. Second, the ability to resist could mean the person is simply incapable of faking a whole personality, and can’t help but be their cute vulnerable self. Imagine that: a person who sucks so badly at acting that they can’t even blend in with the rest of society and thus hide from haters. What’s more vulnerable than that?

So I would conclude that Matt Forney likely is turned on by vulnerability expressed by being naturally open and trusting. She needs to have a basic level of confidence (so she is not like cat number two), yet she still shouldn’t be very confident.

I wonder what the rest of the men think?

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22 Responses to So Is Female Confidence Hot or Not?

  1. Liz says:

    Interesting take, Emma. I lean with the second poster, Moemurray’s assessment here (I’m not familiar with any other works of either, first time I’ve heard of them). I’m also wondering what happened to those ostensibly insecure women the first guy claimed to love?

    It’s pretty obvious a woman (or man) is more “into you” if their world is going to shatter if and when you leave. Doesn’t have a whole lot to do with confidence, even the most confident people fall in love. The ones that don’t are jaded, not confident.

    I’m reminded of the story my husband told me about dating a truly insecure girl in highschool, once (fwiw, she was cute): She waited for him to tell her everything. Where to sit, where they were going, he had to drive the conversation. And after about two dates and three words total from her mouth, she wrote him a note telling him she loved him. He kept up the relationship out of pity until he just couldn’t stand her anymore, and she went on to be a cheerleader and the team cheap pump. Also got addicted to heroin. That was a truly insecure girl. If she’s still alive, she’s probably a feminist now (“men are evil! look at what happened to me!”…when, really, if you’re stupid and don’t value yourself you simply aren’t going to go far in this world).

  2. Liz says:

    Lol!
    I just had a conversation with my husband and now I’m feeling a bit hypocritical about what I stated above. He was going to take our sons out tubing on the boat, and I was trying to round them up so they can change and get the boat ready, but they weren’t listening to me.

    I went outside and asked him to tell them to get ready. My words: “They aren’t registering my voice, they need to hear the alpha male voice to respond, not the alpha female.” He looked at me curiously, and responded, “alpha female? There’s nothing alpha about you.” Then he roared for them to get ready and they scrambled, and I asked him, “how so?” and he said I like to be told what to do, and I’m very girlie and submissive and this permiates everything about my personality and our relationship. And then I said, “but I can do things just fine on my own and make big decisions, you’re not always here”. And he said, “Yes, but you’re not happy then, it seems unnatural to you.” I had to admit he was right.

    Then, I mentioned his ex and said he didn’t seem to like that, and he responded “That’s because she was catatonically stupid”.

    • emmatheemo says:

      Lol 🙂 I think the moral of the story is that everything needs to be in moderation, even the good stuff. Men who say they like big boobs, do not mean literally boobs the size of a house. And men who like submissive vulnerable women don’t literally want a girl who is helpless when he’s not present. It might be cute at first, but soon becomes a liability.

  3. :-p says:

    A confident woman is awe inspiring

  4. Ashley says:

    I don’t know much about this Matt Forney character nor have I read his blog much, but that post of his reads like he’s at an extremely low confidence level which is why he’s turned off by confident women. Ok, so no one likes people who are over confident to the point where they are arrogant assholes. That’s a given. But to be turned off by a woman with basic self confidence? And why is it assume that because a woman admits to being confident, that automatically means she’s insecure actually? I mean, it could be true but it might not be.

    He says, “From the moment they’re old enough to speak, girls in America are bombarded with propaganda that artificially boosts their self-esteem.” That’s inaccurate. They are also bombarded with messages that kill their self esteem.

    Then he goes on to talk about how girls don’t deserve self esteem because they don’t do anything or achieve anything to be worthy of it. First of all, the idea of who is deserving of respect or self esteem and what kinds of things make one worthy of self esteem and respect is subjective. It’s just his opinion, not fact, as is just about every line in his post there. Also, he obviously hasn’t seen that Dove self esteem commercial that explains that girls opt out of many things they want to do because they are insecure about the way they look. Girls don’t accomplish things when they are too insecure to do so. What a paradox he has presented.

    • emmatheemo says:

      Well, when someone is insisting they are confident, it comes across as insecure because confident people don’t need to prove their confidence with words. Confident people already look and act confident to others, so why talk about it? (unless there is a natural reason why he/she talks about it, like their success story and giving tips on how to become more confident).

    • emmatheemo says:

      I gotta say I’m not sure if one has to be insecure to like vulnerability in a partner. I mean, I like it, and I’m kinda insecure. I don’t have earth-shattering beauty or amazing feminine voice to charm a self-sufficient man “on a mission”. Therefore, I don’t like an overly self-sufficient man who will shove me aside for his mission, I want a guy who needs me and doesn’t think he’s god’s gift to women (gosh, that sounds a bit insulting to my bf, who is the hottest man in the world, but i gotta be honest). But am I really insecure? Maybe I’m just being realistic. And perhaps Matt Forney is simply realistic. After all, it is true that a self-sufficient woman is, well, self-sufficient. She can take him or leave him. That’s hardly what we want in love (manmy of us, anyway). We want someone who thinks we’re very important, rather than just as important as dozens other fun things in their life.

      • I agree. I’d even say that emotional vulnerability is a key factor in emotional health, and we seem to live in a very emotion-quashed society, where direct experience is almost always mediated through some kind of screen. Intimacy absolutely requires vulnerability- one of the most passionately hated traits in our society today. Since when do you see people acting soft, empathetic, or breaking down, expressing emotions, or themselves in any but shallow, quirky ways? Softness of any kind is greatly lacking anywhere today.

        Personally, I find being “dependent” and vulnerable liberating. I do however require that my partner is too 🙂

  5. Ashley says:

    “So I would conclude that Matt Forney likely is turned on by vulnerability expressed by being naturally open and trusting.”

    That is probably true.

  6. Vulnerability hits it dead on as a word choice. It’s clear in his article that’s what he meant, but anyone that want’s to tear down strawmen is free to erect a silly misinterpretation of that if they want.

    Matt was saying that, whether she’s truly insecure under a facade of strong girl or not; a girl that seems confident isn’t attractive. More so if it’s a facade, because then they lash out at people that break that in ways that I would tend to categorize them as a raging bitch. But even a ‘confident’ girl really isn’t attractive.

    Confidence is built from self sufficiency, and if a woman is self sufficient there is rarely room for a man in her life, because she’s unwilling to make the room. Meanwhile men are attractive if they’re overly sufficient. That is; they’re able to provide enough confidence and resources for both themselves and their woman/family.

    These are intrinsically tied to the primary roles of men and women. a vulnerable woman will want to grow and nurture the home, while the confidant man will want to provide her with the means to do so.

    • emmatheemo says:

      I think Matt conflated insecure and vulnerable, which need not be the same. But I still see what he’s getting at.

      “Confidence is built from self sufficiency, and if a woman is self sufficient there is rarely room for a man in her life, because she’s unwilling to make the room. ”

      Very well said.

      • ““Confidence is built from self sufficiency, and if a woman is self sufficient there is rarely room for a man in her life, because she’s unwilling to make the room. ”

        Very well said.”

        Is it really well said? What is “self-sufficient” in this concept? How can one be self-sufficient in the romance department?

        Does insecurity come into play in attraction? Sure. Women get somewhat insecure with men they are attracted to. There is even the term: “loyalty testing” when she considers you attractive but aren’t sure if you want to be with her or not.

        Let’s not forget about the effectiveness of a mild “Dread” game either.

        [Although we are falling for the attraction-comfort conundrum here. He says he will fuck them, therefore he is attracted(she has enough alpha), but he wouldn’t want a relationship with her ( not enough beta). Understand I am using the female alpha characteristics here which is not the same as male ones(beta characteristics are mostly the same in both gender)]

        But, in the case of structural “insecurity” instead of one caused by attraction; it means that she has problems that cause her to be this way(body image issues, daddy issues, PTSD etc, can be anything, it doesn’t even have to be serious). She can never really open up and be vulnerable (because of the fear of getting hurt), and she will select mates accordingly. If, at a time, she can get over the stuff that are making her feel this way, her commitment for her mate will probably break, because:
        a) she may now believe she can do better
        b) her attraction towards her mate was based on that insecurity in the first place. Her paradigm of attraction has now shifted, making her mate obsolete.

        Also, unless you are a Dark Triad personality, even as a man one must display vulnerability. Vulnerability has nothing to do with insecurity, in fact it is the opposite. Most people confuse constantly whining with being “vulnerable” and “open”. Although not a manosphere blogger, Mark Manson (a former PUA) has excellent posts about vulnerability.

        “It’s clear in his article that’s what he meant, but anyone that want’s to tear down strawmen is free to erect a silly misinterpretation of that if they want.”

        I don’t think anyone can say it is a strawman. At the very least he doesn’t fully understand the meaning of the words “insecurity” and “self-esteem”. It is like someone saying “I don’t like balls” but you are supposed to infer from that he doesn’t like melons, but hey they are shaped like balls.

      • emmatheemo says:

        “Is it really well said? What is “self-sufficient” in this concept? How can one be self-sufficient in the romance department?”

        What’s wrong with what he said? It is very possible to be self-sufficient in the romance department. I read many people’s stories and their feelings about their relationship. Some open up to the internet by saying they are not sure they want to be tied down yet. And some women say no to proposals of their boyfriends, because marriage sounds like a cage to them (some later regret making that decision). Some men push their gf to have an abortion (and often later regret it too). There are plenty of people in relationships who have no trouble staying self-sufficient. If they weren’t emotionally self-sufficient, they would care a lot more about their partner’s opinion. Their partner is just less important to them than they are to their partner.

      • emmatheemo says:

        “But, in the case of structural “insecurity” instead of one caused by attraction; it means that she has problems that cause her to be this way”

        Actually, not necessarily – it seems self-confidence is likely in part genetic: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/wired-success/200907/self-confidence-nature-or-nurture
        You’re right one is asking for trouble if one starts dating someone with mental issues, or someone who is seriously physically ill when you met them (is it just me, or girls who recover from their serious illness dump their bf immediately after?), but someone who is somewhat insecure “just because” can be pretty good. I have thought about it and I think my first conclusion was ok – the partner needs to be vulnerable above all else, and have basic confidence, but not too much.

  7. Eric says:

    Emma:
    I think that the confusion here comes from feminism’s poisoning of the dialogue. Our culture no longer recognizes a gender polarity and defines such terms in their masculine sense. I’ve seen this same thing come up on Christian-themed blogs around the term ‘submission’. Women think it’s something to be learned or taught, whereas in actuality feminine submission equates to feminine power. Hence, a powerful woman is a submissive one, but it’s almost impossible to explain that concept to women educated under feminism because they can’t think of the term in any sense but a negative one (i.e. submission is a negative masculine trait, therefore it must be negative for women too, or so they think).

    ‘Confidence’ and ‘vulnerability’ are misapplied terms in the same way. Most of these men, raised in an Anglo-American feminist culture have no idea what a woman confident in her femininity would look like. To most minds, a ‘strong confident woman’ acts like a strong, confident man. In reality, a strong confident woman strives to rise to the highest level of her feminine potential. These types of women are rarely encountered except outside the Anglosphere.

    ‘Vulnerable’ simply means ‘open to a relationship’ and again, the neurotic feminist; fixated on her ‘issues’, is never truly vulnerable. A real woman, in a less sex-negative culture, is able to move on from relationship setbacks.

    • emmatheemo says:

      “In reality, a strong confident woman strives to rise to the highest level of her feminine potential. These types of women are rarely encountered except outside the Anglosphere.”

      You know, I don’t know what such a woman would look like, either. Something from a period drama comes to mind. I can imagine her being strong. I just have a hard time imagining her being very confident. A woman can be confident in her effect on men, but not so confident she dumps them fast, accepts their gifts and attention, and then decides to settle down because she’s bored of playing. That’s confident, but sounds pretty unappealing. So to me, it still seems like confidence has a lower limit and an upper limit. Not so insecure she can’t function without you in the room, and no PUA level confidence in her feminine power.

  8. Pingback: So Is Female Confidence Hot or Not? | Truth and...

  9. Reblogged this on By the Mighty Mumford and commented:
    CAN’T VOUCH FOR THE LANGUAGE…BUT PITS TWO “SIDES” OF AN ARGUEMENT AGAINST EACH OTHER…WORTH THE OCCASIONAL ADULT REFERENCES!!!

  10. Pingback: UPDATED STATS REPORT | By the Mighty Mumford

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