”A Little F’d Up” and Feminists Who Want to Help Men, Too

Recently, I read another feminist book. Written by Julie Zeilinger (a teenager), and released in 2012, it was meant to show teenagers that feminism is not a dirty word. In short, the book is there to tell us what feminism is actually about, dispel the harmful stereotypes about it and give the youth of today a feminism that’s relevant to them personally.

Julie Zeilinger  Taken from nocountryforyoungwomen.com

Julie Zeilinger
Taken from nocountryforyoungwomen.com


The book

The book


First comes a chapter on feminist history. It doesn’t appear to be inaccurate as far as I know (I’m not a history expert), but it is colored with the feminist colors that a regular history book isn’t. “A Little F’d Up” makes it look like most men were happily exploiting women, and most women were seething with feminist spirit of rebellion for hundreds of years (but didn’t have the power to overthrow their oppressors, I guess). Only after the industrial revolution did they finally see the right moment to rebel openly, and demand more rights.

Like I said, I’m not a history expert. But I know some things. When reading a regular history book, you get the impression that most people were not very rich, and were mostly concerned with making ends meet, rather than with oppressing family members. There were always people on top though, who often robbed the majority of their rights. And there were always ideologues with varying levels of power and morality. Also, everything I have read so far seems to point towards the hypothesis that the industrial revolution itself contributed to breakdown of family structure. Feminism simply picked up the displeasure it created, and finished the job.


The author also reminds us how crappy our female lives would be before all the feminist victories, and how oppression can come back if we aren’t on guard. I would agree that a lot of us would not be able to live in those times, but I don’t give feminists too much credit for the development. Most of what we have is enabled by abundant fossil fuels (which are getting not-so-abundant and more expensive to extract) and modern inventions, most of which were created by men. Even the pill, which modern feminists (and frankly, me) find so important could not have been conjured up by simply having the majority of people agree that it’s needed and should be legal. Speaking of majority agreement, it appears the male oppressors didn’t put up a huge fight that you would expect from someone who’s been oppressing and using women for hundreds of years. The serfs of Eastern Europe had to slaughter their owners and be slaughtered back several times, before they were emancipated. Perhaps a quote from Esther Vilar’s “The Manipulated Man” is worth repeating:

“..the enemies they fought were really friends and the real enemy remained undetected…. …And they were not aware of it. Their struggle was aided amost exclusively by men, but since they live under the delusion that they were persecuted by men, they mistook the flexibility of men for a sign of female strength and screamed that much louder. And nobody got offended. From The New York Times to The Christian Science Monitor, from Playboy to Newsweek, from Kissinger to McGovern, everybody was for Women’s Liberation. No marches of men were organized against them, nobody prevented their demonstrations. And none of them were taken to task for their unending defamation of men,…”

But I won’t lie, and will give feminists some credit for making my life more enjoyable. Thank you guys, for the legal pill and access to university. I really mean it.


Then the author presents the goals of 3rd wave feminism. Ending the violence against women is one of them. Of course, no one would seriously say they have a problem with such a goal. However, the context is important. Julie says “For men to be able to hurt women, misogyny has to be alive and well”. I think most people can come up with a lot of reasons for hurting women, that don’t include misogyny. It could be wanting something from her and not having anything against using force to get it. It could be anger at that specific individual. It could be possessiveness and insecurity about a mate’s fidelity. None of these things are good or excusable, but they don’t actually imply hate or dislike against women in general.

If you don’t see it, remember that most violence is actually male-on-male. Perhaps it means internalized misandry is alive and well?

Obviously, I don’t have anything against a goal such as greatly reducing violence against women (and men). However, adding an ideological tone to it ruins everything. There are real psychologists out there, studying violence and pointing out risk factors as they really are, not based on ideology that always points out men as the problem (and power and patriarchial control as the motivation). They can probably help us reduce violence everywhere, if silly ideologues weren’t in the way. I have the same feeling about anti-bullying campaigns by the way. They are all outrage and no improvement. If you want real reduction in bullying, look up the Olweus program. That might be something (oh, and bullies do not actually have low self-esteem).


Another goal of 3rd wave feminists is to let women know that being a victim of violence is never their fault, but rather the fault of a misogynistic culture. Now that sounds like a great way to encourage a strong victim mentality based on one of the most intimate parts of yourself – your gender.

There is also the question of fault. It’s very obvious to me, that a victim of violence could be more or less to blame for it. It’s a scale of blame:

No blame: On your way to work, you are attacked and kidnapped out of nowhere.

2-3% to blame: You fall asleep in a house full of strangers and someone sets your hair on fire, injuring you.

50% to blame: You fight with your SO and exchange very harsh insults, after which you push and slap each other.

60% to blame: You taunt a stranger’s mother for a long time, and lose a few teeth.

Almost entirely to blame: You abuse a person for years and prevent them from escaping, and one day they kill you.

My guess is that the author was talking about situations where someone is blamed for their rape because they dressed too revealingly. As with everything else, a feminist text takes a truth and adds something else to it, so you end up agreeing not only with the core truth, but also with all the fallacies added. Unfairly blaming the victim is often a tool of those who want to minimize responsibility for abuse, but a victim is not always blameless and “misogyny” is too simple for an answer. I prefer a more nuanced, realistic view of things.


Julie Zeilinger says that the “Us vs. Them” mentality is bad, and alienating for potential allies. Feminism is also actually good for men, because they’re taught by society not to have any feelings, and need to be told it’s not feminine to love, show empathy or kindness. Being a guy today sucks. Guys have to live up to destructive stereotypes, have to deal with unrealistic body images, and “man up” shaming. Here’s a quote:

“It’s plain hypocritical to preach equality of the sexes when in reality you’re only looking out for one sex. If you’re going to fight for equality, you can’t promote one sex as flawless and the other as the purveyor of all things evil. You can’t expect or want women to ever have more power than men. If you do these things, then you are, in fact, sexist. It might be going too far to say that excluding men from the feminist movement if the same as promoting sexism, but I certainly think the current way we’re approaching equality and attempting to achieve it is a wee bit skewed”.

To me, this quote is almost heartwarming. This is something I’d expect an MHRA to say. I’ll give credit where it’s due, Julie is better than some feminists. However, her answer to men’s problems is more feminism. Did this quote make you forget her view that men oppressed women for thousands of years? Or that this oppression threatens to come back at any moment, if women aren’t on guard? Doesn’t it feel like sleeping with the enemy?.. And this is why I’m not convinced that “pro-men” feminists are genuine. Even if they believe they want to help men, they still believe in oppression of women, their main focus is on women, and showing ways in which it’s not true will not be accepted. In short, if you have major male-specific problems, prepare to be always in the background, or to be fitted into a box, instead of truly being listened to.


Emer O'Toole found at blakefriedmann.co.uk

Emer O’Toole
found at blakefriedmann.co.uk

For some reason, this (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/09/not-a-feminist-move-on-men-women ) woman was criticized for excluding male feminists for caring about male issues. By people at the redpill reddit. Emer O’Toole doesn’t think a belief in equality is enough to be a true feminist. She says:

“But it’s also kind of lying. You need to believe some other important things in order to be a feminist, things that might be illustrated as follows:”

Congratulations feminist 2

“Most of the feminists I know care about how gender inequality affects men. Of course they do – they’re egalitarians. And some also work on male equality issues. But feminism is a movement that seeks to achieve equal rights for women. This focus is necessary, because we live in a world of historically and culturally inscribed female disadvantage.”

I don’t understand why she was harshly criticized for this. She seems honest and much more consistent than someone who believes all the same things, but says feminism is “just about equality”, and “for both sexes”. I suspect an inclusive feminist would become this honest, when men start talking about their problems too much, or about problems the feminist doesn’t comprehend.


P.S. I liked one thing about the book – the author admitted the hookup culture is more fun for guys, rather than girls. And that men are not just women with penises, but humans who are different from women.

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28 Responses to ”A Little F’d Up” and Feminists Who Want to Help Men, Too

  1. ……Want to help men do *what,* exactly?

    • emmatheemo says:

      Uhh… get rid of harmful stereotypes of masculinity?.. Help them understand that love, feelings and kindness are not feminine, and ok for a man to show. That is usually what feminists want to help men with. To stop being desctructively, violently, stoically male.

  2. Eric says:

    “This is why I’m convinced that ‘pro-male feminism’ isn’t genuine.”

    That, and many other reasons. I’m also not convinced that many ‘red-pill women’ aren’t actually feminists.

    The reason for this is apparent all through Ms. Julie’s premises: feminist education instills (and feminist media reinforces) a misandry that is nearly impossible to root out of female psychology once it’s taken root. That’s why she (like the MHRM) think that more feminism is actually going to be good for men, when the opposite is true.

    There’s ample reason to believe that violence against women is caused more by misandry and feminism than anything else. The main reason why there’s so much of it in America is that women can’t keep away from violent, abusive, and psychotic men—combined with the fact that they reflexively need to put a genuinely strong man ‘in his place’. They hear over and over that all men are potential rapists; that ‘nice guys aren’t really nice’; that men are expendable; that ‘all men are pigs’ to the point where they either gravitate towards dysfunctional males who actually fit that stereotype (in the mistaken belief that they’re really masculine) or towards breaking down good men (in the belief that they aren’t a ‘real woman’ unless they are superior to the man), If they saw men as valuable, or at least as an equal, they wouldn’t behave like that.

    • emmatheemo says:

      I think you’re right about misandry that feminist version of reality instills. But I don’t think it’s impossible to get rid of. I used to sorta buy the whole feminist reality in my teens, and yeah it did make me feel slightly misogynist and androphobic, but since I’ve learned the truth and understood the complementarity of the sexes, I’ve got no bad feelings about the natures of either sex.

      Btw, why do you think red pill women are feminist? I hang out at their subreddit, and don’t see anything bad there. They are not female MRAs. All they ever talk about is self-improvement.

      • infowarrior1 says:

        Some RPW could just be siren’s dashing men against the rocks. For femininity can be as much a weapon in the hands of feminists to destroy or to be the neck that turns the head.

        Cloaking their insidious control with weakness hence backleading and cloaking matriarchy with the facade of patriarchy.

      • emmatheemo says:

        Sure, femininity is always a weapon in the hands of feminists, when they relieve women of responsibilities, but never make men question their own. They also appeal to men’s nature when they scream that rape and violence against women is everywhere.

        However, vulnerability is one of women’s feminine natural, good strengths. Women are not meant to be totally powerless under a patriarchy, so I don’t understand your objection to influence through femininity?.. Just like masculine powers, it can be used for both good and evil, but the power itself is neutral.

      • Eric says:

        “All they ever talk about is self-improvement.”

        I should probably qualify what I said above. I don’t think that feminist education is easy to eradicate for a lot of them, and their misandry surfaces from time to time. The feminist and misandryist education is so deeply instilled over here and from such an early age, that a lot of red pill women have the attitudes without even realizing it.

        Recently on a Christian-themed blog, some women were discussing female submission (which is really what you mean by ‘vulnerability’ in your reply to Infowarrior). They were talking about learning submission, being vulnerable. I pointed out to them that’s simply part of being feminine and not something that needs to be learned. It caused quite a debate.

        I don’t criticize red pill women for trying to improve themselves and discussing these issues—God knows we need more of it—but at the same time I kind of feel sorry for them. It seems like they’re grown women discussing things and working out problems that they should have learned before puberty. I know when I’ve been around women from other cultures, they seem to have a natural femininity to them and hatred of men doesn’t seem to be a big part of it. I think that the misandry over here really makes the problem a lot worse—women are basically raised to be anti-male bigots here, and it’s hard for them to overcome that kind of programming.

      • emmatheemo says:

        Hmm. I suppose you’re right – and they themselves often admit that they had to learn to let go and stop being shrews. However, they are trying, and it seems to pay off. They are not saying they’re unicorns (snowflakes), they admit their flaws, which a deceitful pseudo-unicorn wouldn’t do… Of course, no one is obligated to trust them, but I’m kind of surprised at the amount of negativity thrown their way lately.

      • emmatheemo says:

        I mean, they are admitting not just any flaws, but the flaws men won’t find adorably cute and vulnerable.

    • infowarrior1 says:

      I am not objecting to femininity per se. But warning of the potential evil it can entail. Better that we can observe and root out Evil as it is in femininity as we can currently do with masculinity.

      Its the covert nature that feminine evil works that is the danger. Snakes are more deadly than a roaring lion. At least with the lion you are amply warmed Snake on the other hand can strike when you are off your guard.

      Masculine evil is rightfully suppressed by the violence of the law. But what about Feminine evil?

  3. Exfernal says:

    Thinking that gaining the majority vote is enough for transforming reality most often leads to such screwups like Indiana Pi Bill. Excluding opposing views in the name of ideology was never a good idea.
    Dissecting the above graph illustrating feminism is easy:
    “Do you think men and women should be equal?”
    “What do you mean by ‘equal’? In personal choices? Down to the hormonal level? Or perhaps even genetically? If so, I’d rather not be a feminist.”

    • Exfernal says:

      Emma, how would you like more of the feminist brand of equality, where lesser achievement is rewarded more, solely because of gender?

      Aleksandra Duliba of Belarus wins the 2013 Asics LA Marathon women’s race in her marathon debut with a time of 2:26:05 to beat the men and claim the $75,000 Asics challenge in Santa Monica Sunday morning March 17. The women were given an 18:35 headstart and Duliba ran the race 16:36 behind the men.

      Is it more harmful, by undermining the motivation of male competitors unfairly disadvantaged by it, or more beneficial, by “compensating for the millenia of patriarchal oppression”, overall?

  4. Liz says:

    “Julie Zeilinger says that the “Us vs. Them” mentality is bad, and alienating for potential allies. Feminism is also actually good for men, because they’re taught by society not to have any feelings, and need to be told it’s not feminine to love, show empathy or kindness. Being a guy today sucks. Guys have to live up to destructive stereotypes, have to deal with unrealistic body images, and “man up” shaming.”

    Men communicate more by doing and being than by “verbally sharing”. This is the disconnect women have. The feminist will say, “If only men could feel free to share their feelings and really really talk about their issues everything would be so much better…” But they lie in two respects: First, they don’t like it when men truly tell them how they feel. Second, men don’t really want to share their feelings with them, they want to be treated like men…which isn’t possible in an environment where competitiveness and aggression are shamed and shunned from the beginning of life. I think it probably has a lot to do with liabliity issues too. I know the CDC (child development center) at the base can’t use the word ‘no’ or ‘stop’ or ‘don’t’ with the children. Too negative. Instead of saying ‘don’t run’ they have to say, ‘use your walking feet’ and so forth.

    When I was a young kid, I learned to ride a two wheel bicycle at three. I fell off at first. My dad (a retired colonel) told me to get back up on my bike. By the end of the day, my legs and arms were bleeding and I could ride a bike. I’m a girl, and ‘don’t be a sissy girl’ was part of MY upbringing. Women don’t like pajama boys so I don’t know why in the hell feminists pretend that they do, and purposely create them…maybe to torture them?

    • Liz says:

      I’ll add more. Why not. Men are not only taught not to have any feelings, they’re punished for exhibiting masculine behavior that is natural for them. There’s a sneering undercurrent that men are essentially defective females. This isnt’ destructive, it’s instructive. To run, climb, jump, wrestle, and sometimes get hurt. No shocker they don’t feel free to express the “approved emotions” when they aren’t free to express any unapproved ones. God forbid. Force them to watch more Mr Rogers and Barney, the pussification isn’t working 100 percent, and this is a problem…drug them if they won’t comply.

    • emmatheemo says:

      Right on time, a post with similar themes came up: http://therationalmale.com/2014/01/20/suck-it-up/
      Here, a guy did express his feelings about his masculine role, just as some feminists were asking. But they just told him to suck it up and not to divert victimhood status from women with his complaints. Even if Julie herself might have been ok with that guy’s expression of feelings (who knows), men aren’t gonna comply until they have a reasonable incentive for it. Indeed it does look torturous.

      • Liz says:

        Yep. That was a good writeup.
        Any female who is truly interested in how boys interact and actually communicate their feelings should watch Stand By Me. There’s lots of shared feelings there, even tears…none of it is feminine.

    • emmatheemo says:

      “Women don’t like pajama boys so I don’t know why in the hell feminists pretend that they do, and purposely create them…maybe to torture them?”

      Could it be… a shit test?

      • Liz says:

        I dont’ know what it is. If it’s a shit test, it’s a lifelong one that starts practically at birth.
        I think these women just genuinely don’t understand boys and men at all, and they don’t understand what they themselves want.

      • Eric says:

        “Women don’t like pajama boys so I don’t why in the hell feminists pretend that they do, and purposely create them…maybe to torture them?”

        Exactly—to torture them. It’s an expression of how bad their anti-male hatred really is.


        It’s also the same dynamic at work with feminized women who constantly scream about ‘abuse’ and throw themselves at violent thugs. It’s a way of saying to all men: ‘this is how much I value your masculinity.’

      • infowarrior1 says:


        More like feminine evil. Good femininity it is not.

      • Liz says:

        You’re right, Eric. It’s sick and beyond depressing. Of course they have to denigrate and torture males. They’re the new moral busybodies with nothing else to offer the world beyond self-appointed victimhood status.

        For a woman, getting married early, being monogamous, and thumbing your nose at the establishment is a positively countercultural act these days.

      • Eric says:

        Let’s just hope that—like a lot of counter-culture movements—it becomes the norm someday.

        And SOON!!!! LOL

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  6. SirNemesis says:

    60% to blame: You taunt a stranger’s mother for a long time, and lose a few teeth.

    There’s a myth from ancient Rome that goes like that (although with a somewhat more dramatic outcome). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirce

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